IETF
L4S
l4s@jabber.ietf.org
Tuesday, July 19, 2016< ^ >
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[11:54:32] <Meetecho> FYI, as we could not attach to the L4S, remote attendees via Meetecho will NOT be attached to the jabber room here as it usually happens
[11:54:40] <Meetecho> I'll join the room there to notify them about this
[11:54:49] <Meetecho> so that they can join the jabber room via a different Jabber client
[11:57:29] <Lars Eggert> ok
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[11:58:16] <Meetecho> audio, video and slides will work as normal
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[12:10:03] <Natasha Rooney (schuki)> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_list=tcpprague
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[12:11:10] <Lars Eggert>     mailing list: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpprague
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[12:11:29] <timc> thanks
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[12:33:48] <Meetecho> who's presenting in L4S? we can't seem to find the speaker with the camera
[12:33:56] <Meetecho> is it the chairs?
[12:34:11] <Barry Leiba> The speaker is in his seat because he's doing a demo from his laptop.
[12:34:26] <Barry Leiba> Point toward the floor mic, then down a bit.
[12:34:32] <SzilveszterNadas> I think you got him at a point.
[12:34:34] <Barry Leiba> The speaker is at the front row table.
[12:34:51] <timc> he's just to the left of the right side camera
[12:37:55] <Meetecho> still can't find him :(
[12:38:02] <Meetecho> it feels like hide&seek!
[12:38:25] <Meetecho> back to chairs to avoid making remote attendees seasick
[12:38:26] <Andrew Sullivan> A new IETF game!
[12:38:33] <Barry Leiba> Sorry… I guess it's hard to explain verbally.
[12:39:05] <Barry Leiba> Ah… looks like you have it now/
[12:39:17] <Meetecho> did we get him?
[12:39:34] <Barry Leiba> The camera looks like it's pointing correctly.
[12:39:42] <Barry Leiba> Can someone watching the video confirm?
[12:39:51] <SzilveszterNadas> Now yes. :)
[12:39:56] <SzilveszterNadas> Looks ok.
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[12:40:16] <Meetecho> finally! :D
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[12:45:52] <timc> did you get the pokemon too?
[12:50:10] <Meetecho> afraid not!
[12:57:59] <Andrew Sullivan> I confess that this is at a layer of the network that always mystifies my little application-layer brain, but even having read the materials I can't see anything that is a good reason not to do this work.  Are there critics of this idea in the room?
[12:59:37] <Barry Leiba> IOW, Andrew, "You had me at 'Hello'," yes?
[12:59:53] <Andrew Sullivan> (I'm asking because I have to prepare an IAB bof report and I'm leaning towards, "So why isn't this a WG that's nearly done already?")
[13:00:16] <Toke Høiland-Jørgensen> Andrew: yes, there are :)
[13:00:39] <Andrew Sullivan> Ok, good.  I will listen carefully to the questions then.  Thanks
[13:01:19] <Barry Leiba> It seems to me that it would be more useful to hear the issues and discussion than more (albeit short-ish) presentations.
[13:01:30] <Andrew Sullivan> @Barry: yes
[13:01:40] <Andrew Sullivan> Or presentations from critics too
[13:02:31] <SzilveszterNadas> Things like the effect of non-CCed traffic, how stable the classification can be and the stability of the AQM for different flows etc. looks still challenging IMO.
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[13:02:42] <Andrew Sullivan> This preso at least  seems to be suggesting, "There's another way."
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[13:03:49] <Andrew Sullivan> I'm not suggesting, "It's done," but it seems like promising work that addresses a problem we obviously have.  That's what I'm wondering about
[13:04:20] <SzilveszterNadas> I agree with that.
[13:11:41] <SzilveszterNadas> An interesting question is that would AQM WG be a place for this? I.e. is this wg both about improvements to both DCTCP and AQM, not only AQM?
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[13:25:14] <Toke Høiland-Jørgensen> Who is at the mic?
[13:25:31] <SzilveszterNadas> Chritian Huitema was asking teh q
[13:25:38] <Toke Høiland-Jørgensen> thanks
[13:25:39] <SzilveszterNadas> *Christian
[13:26:12] <SzilveszterNadas> yw
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[13:32:14] <Toke Høiland-Jørgensen> On the "No worse than what we have now" comment: Flow isolation (i.e. fairness queueing) *does* protect against unresponsive flows.
[13:32:44] <SzilveszterNadas> But can you do flow isolation today?
[13:33:31] <SzilveszterNadas> I mean for many flows
[13:34:02] <Toke Høiland-Jørgensen> Sure. fq_codel has been in Linux for several years and works really well when installed at the same bottlenecks discussed in the preso earlier
[13:34:10] <Andrew Sullivan> I still haven't heard an argument that  this is (1) a genuinely bad idea or (2) useless and unlikely ever to see deployment
[13:34:34] <Andrew Sullivan> at least, that's what I think I've (not) heard
[13:34:36] <SzilveszterNadas> @Toke: I think this is for a higher aggregation. What do you think.
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[13:35:35] <SzilveszterNadas> Also how to know for fq_Codel whether a queue is for low delay or TCP friendly?
[13:36:00] <craigt> 'experimental' flags don't promote update
[13:36:03] <Toke Høiland-Jørgensen> As for backbone traffic, there are results suggesting that the amount of flow state needed in a router is less than proportional to the number of flows - let me see if I can dig up the reference
[13:36:10] <SzilveszterNadas> @Andrew: I have the same impression.
[13:36:48] <Aaron Falk> @Andrew: agreed
[13:37:51] <SzilveszterNadas> @Toke: there are other issues with per flow queueing: e.g. LEDBAT's friendliness is nullified.
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[13:38:14] <SzilveszterNadas> l4s seems to work with LEDBAT in high length queue
[13:38:21] <Toke Høiland-Jørgensen> @Andrew: I don't think the objections are of the form "We don't want this". More like "Will this work?" - i.e. the comments on incentives etc
[13:39:42] <Andrew Sullivan> I heard the comments on incentives, but the proponents seemed actually to have pretty good answers.  Not perfect answers, but "the work would look like $this, but something is needed."  Which is a good reason for a WG or something
[13:39:49] <SzilveszterNadas> Also e.g. QUIC's CC aggressiveness might be equivalent to 4 TCPs, which might be acceptable as it might transport # of flows equivalent to 4 TCPs over Http1
[13:41:57] <SzilveszterNadas> (An per flow queueing destroys that too)
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[13:44:59] <Toke Høiland-Jørgensen> Sure, flow isolation changes some assumptions; but I'm not sure whether that is a bad thing.
[13:45:28] <SzilveszterNadas> @Toke: sure. It depends on the actual situation.
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