IETF
mls
mls@jabber.ietf.org
Thursday, March 22, 2018< ^ >
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[15:47:30] synp has set the subject to: MLS @ IETF101 - https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/agenda-101-mls-03
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[15:53:07] <synp> Hi, I will be your Jabber scribe. If you want a message relayed to the room microphone, please preface it with "mic:"
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[15:54:12] <synp> slide #4 of the chair slides
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[15:54:37] <synp> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/slides-101-mls-mls-bof-slide-deck-00
[15:55:02] <synp> Richard Barnes presenting the problem statement
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[15:55:20] <synp> "Context"
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[15:55:59] <synp> "Goals"
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[15:59:09] <synp> "What do we want?"
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[16:05:01] <synp> (slide without title)
[16:06:45] <synp> "Prior Art"
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[16:07:31] <synp> "Key Ideas from Prior Art"
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[16:08:55] <synp> "Scope (with analogy to TLS)"
[16:09:22] <Martin Thomson> http://memedad.com/memes/1334787.jpg
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[16:10:35] <Martin Thomson> is this the new MLS logo?
[16:11:01] <synp> Seeing a green screen with the title "Architecture"
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[16:11:21] <Martin Thomson> the previous slide
[16:11:31] <synp> Emad Omara from Google
[16:11:37] <synp> "System Overview"
[16:11:40] <Martin Thomson> or rather, the slide previous to the Green Screen of Death
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[16:12:43] <synp> Another "System Overview" slide
[16:13:03] <richard.barnes> Malleability:
[16:13:03] <richard.barnes> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malleability_(cryptography)
[16:13:17] <synp> Yet another "System Overview" slide
[16:13:42] <synp> "Functional Requirements"
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[16:16:40] <mcr> So, i think that the multi-device situation is a big requirement.
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[16:17:14] <mcr> It would be nice if multiple devices was indistinguishable from a single device that kept doing PFS might work?
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[16:18:52] <synp> "Security Requirements"
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[16:20:58] <richard.barnes> Deniability:
[16:20:58] <richard.barnes> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deniable_encryption
[16:21:42] <synp> Kobeisi @ the mic
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[16:23:06] <synp> "Security Considerations"
[16:23:55] <synp> DKG @ the mic
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[16:24:38] <synp> Richard B
[16:25:56] <synp> (draft) Protocol  
[16:26:16] <synp> Jon Millican from Facebook
[16:26:30] <synp> "Protocol Operations"
[16:27:12] <synp> "Asynchronous Ratcheting Tree"
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[16:28:15] <=JeffH> "666.pdf" <== seriously?!
[16:28:15] <=JeffH> ;)
[16:28:22] <synp> "DH output -> DH key pair"
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[16:29:09] <synp> "DH Trees"
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[16:29:46] <synp> JeffH: It's a 32-page paper, so it's sort of a beast
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[16:30:22] <synp> "Group Evolution"
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[16:31:09] <synp> "Operation 0: Create group"
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[16:31:59] <synp> "Operation 1: Group Initiated Add"
[16:33:32] <synp> "Ooperation 2: User-Initiated Add"
[16:34:02] <synp> *Operation
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[16:35:53] <synp> "Operation 3: Key Update (for PCS)"
[16:36:13] <richard.barnes> [ART]
[16:36:13] <richard.barnes> https://eprint.iacr.org/2017/666.pdf
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[16:37:48] <synp> "Open Issues"
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[16:39:04] <synp> PHB @ the mic
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[16:43:03] <synp> Someone from Microsoft Research
[16:43:38] <synp> ISTM like Richard should be at the front of the room
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[16:44:42] <synp> Jon Lennox
[16:45:56] <synp> Ben Schwartz
[16:48:28] <synp> PHB
[16:49:04] <synp> Ben Kaduk (hat not specified)
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[16:50:09] <synp> <<Formal Analysis>>
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[16:50:25] <synp> Katriel Cohn-Gordon from Oxford
[16:52:07] <synp> "analysis status"
[16:53:27] <synp> "a bit more on the formal analysis"
[16:55:09] <synp> "going forward"
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[16:56:56] <synp> "tl;dr"
[16:57:19] <sftcd> how does follow the tls process map to those charter milestones (just wondering)
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[16:58:39] <synp> <<Charter Text>>
[16:59:04] <synp> How many read the drafts?  Around 30
[16:59:17] <synp> The formal analysis paper?  Not a lot
[16:59:36] <synp> Interested in implementing ~10
[16:59:50] <synp> What messaging app are you working on?
[17:00:17] <synp> Emad: ???
[17:00:27] <synp> J. Rosenberg, Cisco
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[17:00:42] <synp> DKG: working on an email client
[17:00:57] <synp> Someone at Google: Key transparency
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[17:01:31] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> dkg has notmuch going on
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[17:02:16] <synp> Facebook messenger / WhatsApp
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[17:02:41] <synp> Reminder: I am your Jabber scribe. If you want a message relayed to the room microphone, please preface it with "mic:"
[17:02:41] Mallory Knodel has set the subject to: MLS @ IETF101 - https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/agenda-101-mls-03
[17:03:00] <Ehren Kret> mic: I am here from WhatsApp; we are also interested in this.
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[17:03:46] <Andrew Hutton> I am here from Unify Circuit and interested in this.
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[17:04:10] <Dave Cridland> To expand on what I said at the Mic Line, I do work with the XMPP Standards Foundation and there's lots of interest in MLS; I'm personally working on a spec to support MLS in XMPP.
[17:04:17] <synp> Several Internet applications have a need for group key establishment and message
protection protocols with the following properties:
● Asynchronicity - Keys can be established without any two participants being online at the same time
● Forward secrecy - Full compromise of a node at a point in time does not reveal past group keys
● Post-compromise security - Full compromise of a node at a point in time does not reveal future group keys
● Membership Authentication - Each participant can verify the set of members in the group
● Message Authentication - Each message has an authenticated sender
● Scalability - Resource requirements that have good scaling in the size of the
    group (preferably sub-linear)
[17:05:19] <synp> Jon Lennox
[17:06:56] <synp> I think confidentiality is implied by forward secrecy and post-compromise security
[17:07:03] <synp> Dan Harkins
[17:07:37] <synp> Ben Kaduk
[17:08:46] <danyork> Who was the first person at the mic who said what app he was working with?  He was right before JDR from Cisco.
[17:09:05] <danyork> He was listed here as:   [17:00:17] <synp> Emad: ???
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[17:10:28] <synp> Second Charter Slide
Several widely-deployed applications have developed their own protocols to meet these needs. While these protocols are similar, no two are close enough to interoperate. As a result, each application vendor has had to maintain their own protocol stack and independently build trust in the quality of the protocol. The primary goal of this working group is to develop a standard messaging security protocol so that applications can share code, and so that there can be shared validation of the protocol (as there has been with TLS 1.3).
It is not a goal of this group to enable interoperability between messaging applications beyond the key establishment, authentication, and confidentiality services.  Full interoperability would require alignment at many different layers beyond security, e.g., standard message transport and application semantics.  The focus of this work is to develop a messaging security layer that different applications can adapt to their own needs.
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[17:11:43] <synp> Third Charter Slide
In developing this protocol, we will draw on lessons learned from several prior message-oriented security protocols, in addition to the proprietary messaging security protocols deployed within existing applications:
- S/MIME | OpenPGP | Off the Record  | Signal
The intent of this working group is to follow the pattern of TLS 1.3, with specification, implementation, and verification proceeding in parallel.  By the time we arrive at RFC, we hope to have several interoperable implementations as well as a thorough security analysis.
The specifications developed by this working group will be based on pre-standardization implementation and deployment experience, and generalizing the design described in:
● draft-omara-mls-architecture
● draft-barnes-mls-protocol
[17:12:46] <synp> Fourth Charter Slide
Note that consensus is required both for changes to the current protocol mechanisms and retention of current mechanisms. In particular, because something is in the initial document set does not imply that there is consensus around the feature or around how it is specified.
Milestones:
- May 2018 Initial working group documents for architecture and key management Sept 2018 Initial working group document adopted for message protection
- Jan 2019 Submit architecture document to IESG as Informational
- Jun 2019 Submit key management protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard
- Sept 2019 Submit message protection protocol to IESG as Proposed Standard
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[17:14:48] <synp> <<Scoping Questions>>
[17:15:02] <synp> "Should the IETF do the work?"
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[17:23:13] <synp> If the Internet wanted a standardized message format than all the messaging apps would be using XMPP.  I think they want silo'd messaging and the users don't mind.
[17:23:21] <synp> At least, they don't mind too much
[17:23:34] <synp> Dave Cridland at the mic
[17:24:01] <synp> Matt Miller
[17:25:00] <Dave Cridland> synp, Of course, nobody uses XMPP. Apart from here. And telcos. And the finance industry. And military. ;-)
[17:25:10] <synp> Cullen
[17:26:10] <Zash> And a few thousand federated servers run by volonteers and various orgs
[17:26:23] <synp> And all of those together don't have the size of FB Messenger, or WhatsApp, or whatever Google calls theirs.  Maybe as big as Skype messaging or Telegram
[17:26:33] <synp> Ben Kaduk
[17:27:09] <synp> Are the boundaries presented suitable for a security analysis?
[17:27:37] <synp> Humm yes:  quite audible
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[17:27:44] <synp> Humm no: crickets
[17:27:53] <synp> "Do we agree that the application layer interface is the correct place to enable visibility requirements should they exist?"
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[17:28:47] <synp> RB: No provision to decrypt beyond the agreed-upon (in the protocol) members
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[17:29:08] <synp> Jonathan Rosenberg
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[17:29:53] <synp> Hum Yes: very audible
[17:30:07] <synp> Hum no: barely audible
[17:30:27] <synp> MT: this is a non-statement
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[17:30:43] <synp> "Do the documents presented represent a good starting point?"
[17:30:53] <synp> Hum Yes: audible
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[17:30:57] <synp> Hum no: Crickets
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[17:31:12] <synp> "Is this proposal flexible enough for the common use cases of secure messaging applications?"
[17:31:23] <synp> Hum yes: audible
[17:31:35] <synp> Hum no: 1 (PHB)
[17:32:10] <synp> Apparently B followed by a parenthesis is an icon...
[17:32:17] <synp> PHB at the mic
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[17:33:53] <synp> At the IETF we use email as instant messaging
[17:35:04] <Sean Leonard> (meta-question) is there a mailing list for this to discuss? was in other sessions, coming late to this
[17:35:25] <Dennis Jackson> https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/mls/about/
[17:35:27] <Dennis Jackson> :)
[17:35:38] <synp> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mls
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[17:36:15] <synp> "Is the problem tractable?"
[17:36:19] <synp> Yes: audible
[17:36:26] <synp> No: crickets
[17:36:37] <synp> Is this the right place to address “the problem”?
[17:36:43] <synp> Yes: audible
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[17:36:48] <synp> No: crickets
[17:37:06] <synp> "Who is willing to author specs?"
[17:37:12] <synp> A bunch of hands (15 or so)
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[17:37:26] <synp> "Who is willing to review specs?"
[17:37:33] <synp> Around 30
[17:37:51] <synp> "should we form a wg"?
[17:38:00] <synp> Yes: many;  No: none
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