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[18:37:54] <ggm> [harald stares over glasses at audience]
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[18:44:05] <ggm> [we're off]
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[18:46:35] <jishac> Plenary Break --> 61th IETF
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[18:48:28] <ggm> Harald: we are in DC. claps for Alcatel.
[18:48:28] <ggm> [claps]
[18:48:28] <ggm> Few things we want to share with you. the usual stuff. trying to get as incisive and pointed as possible
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[18:49:30] <ggm> (sorry lost wifi)
[18:49:48] <ggm> Canada, not yet clear where. (no snowshoes) [boos]
[18:49:52] <ggm> [applause]
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[18:50:11] <ggm> Harald: so in short, welcome to plenary. Now a word from our sponsors
[18:50:27] <ole> Is there a bad attitude room?
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[18:51:24] <ggm> host gets fingerprint too. neccessary to be fingerprinted for texas driver licence. but not the same fingers.
[18:51:44] <ggm> DHS left/right fore finger, texas == thumbs. some intelligence, not middle fingers [applause]
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[18:52:35] <ggm> this is the hotel where reagan shot. only tourist attraction in dallas is the X. they steamcleaned the road here, tourists used to lie down in the road for photo ops.
[18:52:47] <ggm> hinkley is ex student of my kids school, but not advertized.
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[18:53:13] <ggm> asked what was expectd for host presentation. advice: don't make marketing pitch. don't advertize, don't talk technical, be entertaining, don't do what happened in vienna.
[18:53:18] <ggm> lots of advice, not much input.
[18:53:22] <Jim Galvin> what happened in Vienna??
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[18:53:31] <ggm> (except reagan story from geoff, thankyou geoff)
[18:53:38] <ole> can't find the bad attitude room
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[18:54:03] <ggm> no subliminal marketing (jedi mind tricks)
[18:54:15] <ggm> did a search for host@mobile.. [applause]
[18:54:35] <ggm> nothing in host presentation control protocol.
[18:54:49] <ggm> but found interesting early RFCs. couldn't find one by al gore
[18:55:16] <Jim Galvin> can anybody speak to what happened in Vienna during plenary?
[18:55:20] <ggm> wondered how many before official birth: 17 before the BBN node. 18 is the day before, RFC14 wasn't issued.
[18:55:27] <ggm> maybe one of you can let me know.
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[18:55:54] <ggm> RFQ made fascinating reading. tech issues similar to today.
[18:56:09] <ggm> commercial section. interesting one: unneccessary elaborate brochures.
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[19:00:09] <ggm> beyond that required to be effective, may be offered as an indication of the lack of cost consciousness
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[19:05:00] <ggm> [lost wifi. I don't think I am reliable enough to do the scribe function. sorry -ggm]
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[19:05:29] <ggm> RFC ed.
[19:05:32] --- BP has joined
[19:05:40] <ggm> 28/mo. increase. increase in delays.
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[19:05:46] <ggm> employed professional copy editor
[19:05:54] <ggm> authors may see more queries.
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[19:06:15] <ggm> some cultural issues s/agreement/consensus/ problems [laughter]
[19:06:25] <ggm> RFC-ED desk and office hours popular. intend to continue
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[19:07:02] <ggm> published revisions to boilerplate. 3667/3668 now 3907/3908.
[19:07:09] <ggm> BCPs instead of RFCs. independent of future updates
[19:07:24] <ggm> having problems with spam attacks on rfc-info server. fixed. newer O/S.
[19:07:35] <ggm> slight increase in XML. still smallish number.
[19:07:48] <ggm> please send XML if using XML and tool.
[19:08:20] <ggm> interested in MS Word template for RFCs feedback.
[19:08:34] <ggm> 89 since august, 86 submissions.
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[19:08:49] <ggm> Fred Baker. Q. I thought all inputs to RFC-ED were unsolicited. having spam problem [groan]
[19:09:00] <ggm> Harald. next IANA.
[19:09:06] <ggm> Doug Barton
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[19:09:21] <ggm> no stats, just some charts, speed it up
[19:09:37] <ggm> easy to read in the handout we prepared. michelle here, at the back/corner, can give
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[19:09:59] <ggm> pointing to slide with laser pointer.
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[19:10:15] <ggm> bit at end, shows close to meeting target, documents flow through iana Q in less than 4 weeks. due to michelle
[19:10:23] <ggm> due in part to hiring new staff.
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[19:10:32] <ggm> more of michelles time devoted to IETF [applause]
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[19:11:06] <ggm> draft queue size, shows number of docs.
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[19:13:26] <ggm> allocated over 300 PEN numbers in last month
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[19:13:49] <ggm> Port registry requests close to up-to-date
[19:13:53] <ggm> new staffer, Pearl Liang.
[19:14:10] <ggm> correspondance up to date thanks to her. thats the short version.
[19:14:29] <ggm> Harald. Bills turn
[19:14:35] <ggm> Bill Fenner.
[19:14:59] <ggm> UNIX ed copy editor replaced all /etc with 'and so on' to good effect... [laughter]
[19:15:06] <ggm> same data as last IETF.
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[19:15:29] <ggm> https: URL with login details
[19:17:21] <ggm> requested and approved low, but still fairly good
[19:17:32] <SharonChisholm> Did they do the country pie chart yet?
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[19:17:35] <ggm> revisions requested, revised also low, but still good
[19:17:49] <ggm> [dunno sorry eyes elsewhere.]
[19:17:55] <ggm> normalzied table of times.
[19:18:08] <ggm> less requests over this time, but more approvals (significantly more)
[19:18:10] <ggm> whats next?
[19:18:21] <ggm> still intend to make available monthly, in whatever way makes sense.
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[19:18:30] <ggm> also to evaluate up-coming proto experiments.
[19:18:35] <ggm> want to know what you think
[19:19:06] <ggm> Harald. Leslie.. your turn
[19:19:53] <ggm> Leslie. either my computer gets sick or I do, and the computer is fine. damn.
[19:19:59] <ggm> recent IAB highlights.
[19:20:24] <ggm> arch implications of link indications, bernard aboba, published as internet draft, read through it, early feedback requested
[19:20:50] <ggm> IAB process for management of liaisons has been last-called. through. if a liaison to other orgs, will want to read it. not new, but useful
[19:21:12] <ggm> in pubqueue, the OMA/IETF standard liaison. that doc has been approved and put in pub Q.
[19:21:16] <ggm> other IAB activities
[19:21:41] <ggm> met with IETF/ISOC BoT on admin restructuring. IAB messaging workshop in S.D. pete here to tell us about it.
[19:21:44] <ggm> Pete Resnick
[19:22:51] <ggm> problems in email. the big elephant in the room. thoughts about consent based messaging. along lines of IM today. relation to emails. how other messaging protocols, blogging enter into it. how they converge.
[19:23:09] <ggm> some folks on IRTF, IESG interested in work. IAB for convergeance
[19:23:25] <ggm> solicited topics from select group of folks. write up ideas. jam in to room in SF for two days
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[19:23:43] <ggm> recommend happy hour at 5:30 helps to keep it sane
[19:23:55] <ggm> did breakouts on inter-protocol messaging. auth, negotiation.
[19:24:09] <ggm> day 2 user control, transport, key dist and identity.
[19:24:12] <ggm> avoided the elephant.
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[19:24:57] <ggm> ended up with bunch of topics.
[19:25:22] <ggm> inter protocols , refer to messages from IM in email. may want inter-protocol IDs. some ideas in security area for simpler key dist protocols.
[19:25:53] <ggm> research topics, ideas said about automated introductions. how to find theperson IS somebody you want to talk to. and multi-transport messaging. moving between the modalities to get to the same messages.
[19:26:23] <ggm> blue sky topics. threads and 'conversation' management. cross protocols. interesting way forward. bigger issue of inter-protocol trust models. long list of these.
[19:26:25] <ggm> collecting notes.
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[19:26:35] <ggm> get ideas into final workshop report
[19:26:47] <ggm> putting into archive, get discussions started.
[19:27:26] <ggm> want to use this as place to start thinking about future IAB workshops. spinup cost was impressive. people came out, was hard work. not smooth machine but came out talking high level arch is useful thing.
[19:27:31] <ggm> may be productive to do in future.
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[19:28:50] <ggm> Harald covers the crowd moving to the presidium.
[19:29:27] <ggm> volunteer crew for network, backroom people, literally working day and night, to bring V6, like to ask for thanks [applause]
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[19:30:25] <ggm> welcome sam hartman, steve bellovin retiring. [applause]
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[19:30:41] <ggm> doing the name run down the tables.
[19:32:09] <ggm> Admin Restructuring.
[19:32:12] <ggm> Harald.
[19:32:19] <ggm> Leslie to update on current status
[19:32:48] <ggm> structure this part of the discussion. two parts. review of where we are, review of where we are going. then spend time on draft BCP. then move on to normal open plenary in some manner.
[19:32:57] <ggm> where are we part..
[19:33:14] <ggm> believe there is community consensus for moving admin activity forward asn an ISOC activity.
[19:33:19] <ggm> does NOT affect technical process.
[19:33:33] <ggm> defining documents are still drafts. agreed direction. plenty of editing to go.
[19:33:43] <ggm> will start proceeding with transition to ISOC admin support.
[19:33:54] <ggm> how did we get here?
[19:33:57] <ggm> 2003 Aug. convened IAB adv. cttee.
[19:34:04] <ggm> Nov. presented from it.
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[19:35:41] <ggm> March 2004, extensive discussions
[19:35:42] <ggm> May 2004. revised draft.
[19:35:43] <ggm> June 2004, hired carl malamud, consultant.
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[19:36:52] <ggm> [droput loss. sorry]
[19:36:57] <ggm> next steps. process.
[19:37:11] <ggm> finalize BCP. pick editorial team. independent of proposing team.
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[19:37:33] <ggm> need community discussion, areas needing further work. continue on IETF ml.
[19:37:39] <ggm> will bring in subject matter experts for org/legal review.
[19:37:48] <ggm> revised version by beginning of next month.
[19:37:57] <ggm> next step will be to run BCP through approval process. last call.
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[19:38:24] <ggm> 4 week calls. discussion/approval follows, telechat 6th Jan, can be approved at that time
[19:38:38] <ggm> then can ask Nomcom to fill spots.
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[19:38:55] <ggm> will appoint transiiton team for spinup in Nov.
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[19:39:25] <ggm> start process for selecting IAD, the admin director. know we've asked people to suggest candidates to consider for transition team.
[19:39:43] <ggm> not making binding decisions.
[19:39:58] <ggm> John. can you slow down? slides very uneven, hard to read. need to absorb by listen not read.
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[19:41:28] <ggm> IETF support for 2005.
[19:41:32] <ggm> in Aug optimistic.
[19:41:50] <ggm> hopeful to wrap up around sept. expected RFP secretariat for 2005. here we are in Nov, 2005 approaching.
[19:41:58] <ggm> not possible to RFP before 2005
[19:42:14] <ggm> CNRI has been working on new proposals to handle secretariat for 2005. one transition team is to review them
[19:42:31] <ggm> maybe this will be viable to continue for sole source for some time, integrate into overall IASA form in BCP. keeping eye on 2005
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[19:42:41] <ggm> additional proposals on the table. identified ones we think
[19:42:53] <ggm> over to Harald.
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[19:43:57] <Suresh Krishnan> Harald talking about the goals of the IASA proposal
[19:44:11] <Suresh Krishnan> The slides are not very readable
[19:44:25] <Suresh Krishnan> IASA - IETF administrative support activity
[19:44:53] <Suresh Krishnan> continued close support with ISOC
[19:45:08] <Suresh Krishnan> IETF defines/refines this activity
[19:45:22] <Suresh Krishnan> an oversight board which is accountable to the IETF community
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[19:45:50] <Suresh Krishnan> provides separation between fund-raising and standards activity
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[19:46:03] <Suresh Krishnan> allows ISOC to monitor funds deployment
[19:46:10] <Suresh Krishnan> NO CHANGES to the standards activity
[19:46:21] <Suresh Krishnan> new acronyms
[19:46:37] <Suresh Krishnan> IAOC - IETF admin. oversight comitee
[19:47:02] <Suresh Krishnan> IETF selected comitee which oversees IASA, and is accountable to the IETF
[19:47:19] <Suresh Krishnan> IAD - IETF Admin. Director
[19:47:44] <Suresh Krishnan> paid staff member responsible for carrying out the work of IASA
[19:47:54] <Suresh Krishnan> we don;t bureaucracy just for the sake of it
[19:48:06] <Suresh Krishnan> I left out the word build
[19:48:24] <Suresh Krishnan> IETF exists for the sake of the Internet
[19:48:32] <Suresh Krishnan> Structure of the IASA
[19:48:44] <Suresh Krishnan> IAOC oversees the IAD,IASA
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[19:48:54] <Suresh Krishnan> IAD is an employee of the ISOC
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[19:51:44] <Suresh Krishnan> IAOC is composed of 7 voting members
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[19:52:23] <Suresh Krishnan> 2 chosen by IETF
[19:52:23] <Suresh Krishnan> 1 chosen by the IESG
[19:52:23] <Suresh Krishnan> 1 by IAB
[19:52:23] <Suresh Krishnan> 1 by the ISOC trustees
[19:52:23] <Suresh Krishnan> The IETF chair
[19:52:23] <Suresh Krishnan> The ISOC President
[19:52:24] <Suresh Krishnan> 3 non-voting liaisons
[19:52:24] <Suresh Krishnan> IASA finances
[19:52:24] <Suresh Krishnan> 2 sources
[19:52:24] <Suresh Krishnan> IETF meeting fees
[19:52:24] <Suresh Krishnan> ISOC funds
[19:52:24] <Suresh Krishnan> Budget is determined by the ISOC
[19:52:24] <Suresh Krishnan> There will be a IETF BCP document for documenting this activity
[19:52:24] <Suresh Krishnan> This document will go thru last call and be approved
[19:52:31] <Suresh Krishnan> (Huge Lag)
[19:52:41] <Suresh Krishnan> Issues
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[19:54:51] <Suresh Krishnan> Final composition of IAOC
[19:54:51] <Suresh Krishnan> Open to questions
[19:54:51] <Suresh Krishnan> (Jabber meeting room is VERY SLOW)
[19:54:51] <Suresh Krishnan> (Floor is open to questions)
[19:54:51] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC(Dave Nelson)
[19:54:51] <Suresh Krishnan> will the ned admin process be cheaper or more expensive
[19:54:51] <Suresh Krishnan> Harald: We need to pay one extra person
[19:54:51] <Suresh Krishnan> But we don't know in the long run
[19:55:26] <Suresh Krishnan> Leslie: A whole lot of functions are moved to this IASA so it might help us. but I don't know for sure
[19:55:43] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC(Michael Richardson)
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[19:57:28] <Suresh Krishnan> Do you think we will get better organization because of this irrespective of the money?
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[19:58:40] <Suresh Krishnan> Will we know maeetings more than 3 months in advance
[19:58:40] <Suresh Krishnan> Harald: yes
[19:58:40] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC (John Troublemaker ;-))
[19:58:40] <Suresh Krishnan> 3 observations
[19:58:40] <Suresh Krishnan> need timetables for issues
[19:58:40] <Suresh Krishnan> need some time to review important documents. no point coming up with these the day of the plenary
[19:58:40] <Suresh Krishnan> Leslie: wants to know examples
[19:58:40] <Suresh Krishnan> John: Talks about the budget being delivered today
[19:58:40] <Suresh Krishnan> Leslie: Talks about the BCP being delivered two weeks in advance
[19:58:40] <Suresh Krishnan> John: It is not a complaint
[19:59:19] <Suresh Krishnan> Obs2: Wants to know about the shift in timelines
[19:59:49] <Suresh Krishnan> Obs3: Extra reviews by experts is a good idea but where does it fit in the process
[19:59:55] <Suresh Krishnan> Harald : on obs3
[20:01:06] <Suresh Krishnan> it is between this version of the draft and the next one. don't know if 2 weeks is long enough. advice on who to ask for advice is appreciated
[20:01:41] <Suresh Krishnan> Leslie: on obs2.
[20:02:04] <Suresh Krishnan> the timeline was set in SD but by end of August we knew we slipped
[20:02:04] <Suresh Krishnan> the timeline is still optimistic
[20:02:37] <Suresh Krishnan> if we don't meet this timeline it will be because of the same reasons we did not meet the previous one
[20:02:57] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC(Richard Perlman)
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[20:03:03] <Suresh Krishnan> Large part of funding for the ISOC will come from the PIR
[20:03:18] <Suresh Krishnan> ISOC spends about a million dollars a year.
[20:03:41] <Suresh Krishnan> Is this a risk we need to be worried about?
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[20:04:25] <Suresh Krishnan> Harald: We could have gone to many places, but I had a firm favorite. The consensus of the community is that this is the lowest risk option which satisfied the criteria
[20:04:55] <Suresh Krishnan> To reduce the risk increase contribution to ISOC
[20:05:06] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC(ISOC)
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[20:05:18] <Suresh Krishnan> The actual budget is $840,000
[20:05:44] <Suresh Krishnan> next years budget is $1.4m with significant increase in RFCEditor spending
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[20:06:09] <Suresh Krishnan> Plans to increase revenue streams
[20:06:19] <Suresh Krishnan> suggested by Harald and Leslie
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[20:06:47] <Suresh Krishnan> $1.3m of the money next year will come from PIR
[20:07:21] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC(IESG)
[20:07:50] <Suresh Krishnan> We have to figure out how to manage a reserve and ways to get there (increase meeting fees for example)
[20:07:57] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC(Brian Carpenter)
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[20:08:07] <Suresh Krishnan> Thanks for the budget even if it was late
[20:08:18] <Suresh Krishnan> I cannot see the risk
[20:08:49] <Suresh Krishnan> (Cannot clearly see the composition of the IAOC)
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[20:09:21] <Suresh Krishnan> (wants to know why the IAB appointed member on the IAOC cannot vote)
[20:09:36] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC(Margaret W)
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[20:10:39] <Suresh Krishnan> the idea is to free the IAB from some administrative activities
[20:11:00] <Suresh Krishnan> hopefully the IAB does not need to be involved much with the admin activity
[20:11:15] <Suresh Krishnan> and spend time on defining the Architecture of the Internet
[20:11:33] <Suresh Krishnan> Brian Carpenter : is not convinced
[20:11:42] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC(John)
[20:11:51] <Suresh Krishnan> supports Brian's comments
[20:12:12] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC(Bob Kahn)
[20:12:33] <Suresh Krishnan> (thought restructuring was a bad idea)
[20:12:43] <Suresh Krishnan> (now thinks it is good on the long term)
[20:12:58] <Suresh Krishnan> (very optimistic about the future)
[20:13:11] <Suresh Krishnan> (will help all he can)
[20:13:25] <Suresh Krishnan> I have a lot of questions and don't see anybody else asking those
[20:14:30] <Suresh Krishnan> 1) Restructuring has to be based on real need and must stand the test of time.
[20:14:49] <Suresh Krishnan> This issue has not been explored very well
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[20:15:10] <Suresh Krishnan> 2) How to define performance levels for support organizations.
[20:15:52] <Suresh Krishnan> (couple of years ago I put up a list of issues on this regard)
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[20:16:19] <Suresh Krishnan> This has not been done today
[20:16:30] <Suresh Krishnan> it is a difficult issue but has to be addressed
[20:17:04] <randy> WHo is speaking?
[20:17:12] <ole> Bob Kahn
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[20:17:37] <Suresh Krishnan> 3) To maintain respect among the IETF community we need to maintain the level of self governance we have had
[20:18:12] <Suresh Krishnan> the basic rationale for all the separate bodies was not a logically sound argument
[20:18:31] <Suresh Krishnan> we need to justify to the world why we need to restructure
[20:19:10] <Suresh Krishnan> If we do not understand all the issues in play go with a LIGHTWEIGHT structure
[20:19:20] <Suresh Krishnan> (applause)
[20:19:27] <Suresh Krishnan> Harald: praising Kahn)
[20:20:03] <Suresh Krishnan> Harald: The IETF chair was not selected for his expertise in contract management
[20:20:08] <Suresh Krishnan> (scattered laughs)
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[20:20:34] <Suresh Krishnan> IETF has prided itself on its openness and that is one of the reasons for its success
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[20:20:55] <Suresh Krishnan> conspiracy theories of third party controls did not fly because of this
[20:21:39] <Suresh Krishnan> we safegaurd our reputation by technical excellence
[20:21:51] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC(Dave Nelson)
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[20:22:36] <Suresh Krishnan> The restructuring is necessary but not sufficient.
[20:23:03] <Suresh Krishnan> (is concerned that running the IETF is getting more expensive)
[20:23:15] <Suresh Krishnan> (wants to know if cost/RFC has increased)
[20:23:54] <Suresh Krishnan> (other foreign bodies would love to play the role of IETF)
[20:24:27] <Suresh Krishnan> (concerned that we might be concentrating at the wrong place)
[20:25:23] <Suresh Krishnan> Leslie: (talking about liaison relationships)
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[20:25:39] <Suresh Krishnan> (we are trying to co-operate with other organizations and not compete)
[20:26:00] <Suresh Krishnan> (agrees that it is necessary but not sufficient)
[20:26:14] <Suresh Krishnan> (will help to improve our technical process)
[20:26:43] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC(Aaron Falk)
[20:27:29] <Suresh Krishnan> Talks about the new copyeditor the RFC editor is hiring
[20:27:47] <Suresh Krishnan> (does not know the exact numbers)
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[20:28:55] <Suresh Krishnan> Having had the privilege to see how this process went on I appreciate the work you folks are doing
[20:29:10] <Suresh Krishnan> (wants to see the schedule slide and ask a couple of questions)
[20:29:17] <Suresh Krishnan> Harald: Rob Austein and Berk Wijnen will be editing the BCP
[20:29:48] <Suresh Krishnan> may solicit editors from outside the IESG/IAB
[20:30:12] <Suresh Krishnan> (Nov 15 for first version, Dec 1 for the next version of the BCP)
[20:30:26] <Suresh Krishnan> Leslie: (wants feedback to the IETF list by this weekend)
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[20:31:08] <Suresh Krishnan> Harald: (wants some people with contract negotiation skills)
[20:31:12] <Suresh Krishnan> (for IAD?)
[20:31:34] <Suresh Krishnan> Leslie: (doc has not changed a lot since August)
[20:32:10] <Suresh Krishnan> (wants specific proposals for changes ASAP)
[20:32:33] <Suresh Krishnan> Harald: (thinks the doc was right the first time around)
[20:32:40] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC(Aaron)
[20:33:12] <Suresh Krishnan> transition team will pick a director. Will the community be allowed input on this process
[20:33:42] <Suresh Krishnan> Harald: Yes. but how and when will be on the IETF list
[20:33:43] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC(Spencer Dawkins)
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[20:34:14] <Suresh Krishnan> (worried about people doing both admin and tech work)
[20:34:35] <Suresh Krishnan> (thanks IESG/IAB for the work)
[20:34:38] <Suresh Krishnan> (applause)
[20:34:45] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC(Patrice ...)
[20:34:58] <Suresh Krishnan> (She was counsel to the IETF for 10 years)
[20:35:16] <Suresh Krishnan> (IETF grew from small orgn. to a big one)
[20:35:52] <Suresh Krishnan> (she would like the IETF to have some formal existence)
[20:35:53] <ks> s
[20:36:14] <Suresh Krishnan> (to be protected from liability)
[20:37:16] <Suresh Krishnan> (worried about outside organizations having a different agenda from the IETF)
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[20:37:54] <Suresh Krishnan> (worried about IETF not determining its own funding and instead depending on a third party)
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[20:46:20] <Suresh Krishnan> Leslie: (thinks slide does not do justice to the real process. The IETF does have a say in the budget)
[20:46:20] <Suresh Krishnan> Leslie: We have had independent legal counsel
[20:46:20] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC(John)
[20:46:20] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC(IESG)
[20:46:20] <Suresh Krishnan> (the IETF itself decided to keep the organization informal)
[20:46:20] <Suresh Krishnan> as Bob said we wanted to change as little as possible
[20:46:20] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC(Patrice)
[20:46:20] <Suresh Krishnan> I have been around longer than you and I appreciate the opinion of the community. I am now speaking as the counsel of the CNRI
[20:46:20] <Suresh Krishnan> (thinks IETF needs to grow up and take responsibility of its own finances)
[20:46:20] <Suresh Krishnan> (this means giving up control of our own future)
[20:46:20] <Suresh Krishnan> (she wants to have a WG to discuss the two different ideas)
[20:46:20] <Suresh Krishnan> Harald: Feedback on draft-lyons seems to indicate that people do not want to create a formal organization
[20:46:20] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC(John)
[20:46:32] <Suresh Krishnan> is still confused about the schedules
[20:46:59] <Suresh Krishnan> (bad connectivity)
[20:47:42] <Suresh Krishnan> (wants assurance that the community will have a chance to give input before doing anything)
[20:48:12] <Suresh Krishnan> (hearing a lot of rumours about secretarial arrangements)
[20:48:34] <Suresh Krishnan> (wants assurance that the community will not be blindsided)
[20:48:43] <Suresh Krishnan> (question to patrice)
[20:49:01] <Suresh Krishnan> (he is not a lawyer and cannot even play one on TV)
[20:49:12] <Suresh Krishnan> (has a lot of standards experience)
[20:49:24] <Suresh Krishnan> (like ANSI)
[20:50:03] <Suresh Krishnan> (there are ZERO standards organizations incorporated in the US)
[20:50:55] <Suresh Krishnan> (what he knows contradicts with the picture that Patrice painted)
[20:51:06] <Suresh Krishnan> Harald: (running late on time)
[20:51:19] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC(?)
[20:51:43] <Suresh Krishnan> (Worried about attrition)
[20:52:01] <Suresh Krishnan> (If people are not happy with the way things work, they will leave)
[20:52:15] <Suresh Krishnan> (need stats about new attendees and returning attendees)
[20:52:21] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC(Tom Shepard)
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[20:52:39] <Suresh Krishnan> (he is talking about the same subject but is more optimistic)
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[20:52:58] <hartmans> Keep in mind that there is going to be significant rotation in who is involved as jobs and people change
[20:53:33] <hartmans> Having people leave may or may not be a problem, depending on whether they are replaced and on why they leave.
[20:53:48] <Suresh Krishnan> (thinks that we have an argument only about the IASA and not about the IETF itself)
[20:53:48] <hartmans> It's Tim, not Tom, BTW
[20:53:59] <Suresh Krishnan> (Thanks Sam)
[20:54:19] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC(Patrice)
[20:54:45] <Suresh Krishnan> (part of the issue is funding is the ties with come with it)
[20:55:15] <Suresh Krishnan> (talking about her proposal)
[20:55:25] <Suresh Krishnan> (talks about increasing legislation in this area)
[20:55:43] <Suresh Krishnan> (talks about lightweight incorporation process)
[20:56:07] <Suresh Krishnan> (she just prefers a formal existence and is not MANDATING it)
[20:56:25] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC(Bernard?)
[20:56:38] <Suresh Krishnan> No RFC for BT,emule or Kazaa
[20:56:53] <Suresh Krishnan> Not many new people
[20:57:05] <Suresh Krishnan> (Don't know who it was)
[20:57:09] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC (David Black)
[20:57:24] <hartmans> There seem to be a fair number of new people in the security area
[20:57:32] <Suresh Krishnan> (spent some time in organizations)
[20:57:44] <hartmans> we could of course use more
[20:57:45] <Suresh Krishnan> (does not totally agree with John)
[20:57:57] <Suresh Krishnan> (IEEE for example is incorporated)
[20:58:37] <Suresh Krishnan> (emphasizes the need for an environment conducive to work)
[20:58:49] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC(Spencer Dawkins)
[20:59:09] <Suresh Krishnan> (in 1996 we wanted people to take the work elsewhere)
[20:59:17] <Suresh Krishnan> (we were swamped)
[20:59:26] <Suresh Krishnan> (now do we need to solicit people)
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[21:00:10] <Suresh Krishnan> Harald: The question is that can we get enough people to read the BCP before Dec?
[21:00:21] <Suresh Krishnan> Too aggressive?
[21:00:24] <Suresh Krishnan> (few hands)
[21:00:29] <Suresh Krishnan> Too Defensive?
[21:00:33] <Suresh Krishnan> (fewer hands)
[21:00:37] <Suresh Krishnan> Just Right?
[21:00:46] <Suresh Krishnan> (a lot of hands)
[21:01:02] <Suresh Krishnan> How many have read the drafts?
[21:01:12] <Suresh Krishnan> (decent number of hands 50?)
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[21:01:24] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC(Bob)
[21:01:50] <Suresh Krishnan> (about rumors in the hall)
[21:02:39] <Suresh Krishnan> CNRI has been overseeing the secretariat since the 80s
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[21:03:25] <Suresh Krishnan> we did not want this role for perpetuity
[21:03:51] <Suresh Krishnan> (he is doing the admin work for free and wants to offload this work)
[21:04:20] <Suresh Krishnan> (wants the CNRI to offload this work totally)
[21:04:30] <Suresh Krishnan> (wants to lay the groundwork for the same)
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[21:04:53] <Suresh Krishnan> (about stuff costing more - thinks things cost less)
[21:05:17] <Suresh Krishnan> (attendance is lower and the costs are lower - it may not be a good thing)
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[21:06:16] <Suresh Krishnan> (the job will be solely for the IETF to do)
[21:06:34] <Suresh Krishnan> (do it the best way you can)
[21:06:46] <Suresh Krishnan> (foretec may be a player)
[21:07:21] <Suresh Krishnan> (there are more important things than this to do)
[21:07:46] <Suresh Krishnan> (talks about working code and rough consensus)
[21:08:00] <Suresh Krishnan> (talks about the plan being very hypothetical)
[21:08:32] <Suresh Krishnan> (will do everything to make this restructuring plan a success)
[21:09:02] <Suresh Krishnan> Harald: (subject closed)
[21:09:08] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC (Bill Manning)
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[21:09:52] <Suresh Krishnan> (does not want IETF to no longer work on IPv6)
[21:10:11] <Suresh Krishnan> (wants to work on just IP)
[21:10:24] <Suresh Krishnan> (thinks it creates divisiveness and confusion)
[21:10:51] <Suresh Krishnan> Harald: (thinks it is a good point)
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[21:12:25] <Suresh Krishnan> talking about a no spam policy
[21:12:56] <Suresh Krishnan> (talking about double opt-in)
[21:13:12] <Suresh Krishnan> (that was Dave Perkins)
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[21:13:30] <Suresh Krishnan> (IETF should have zero-tolerance towards spam)
[21:13:39] <Suresh Krishnan> HArald: (thinks it is a good idea)
[21:13:54] <Suresh Krishnan> (The room sucks, there is now power anywhere in the room)
[21:13:59] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC(Tony Hain)
[21:14:07] <Suresh Krishnan> Agress with bill manning
[21:14:25] <Suresh Krishnan> about removing version numbers from ip
[21:14:54] <Suresh Krishnan> (thinks we will be roadkill)
[21:15:08] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC(Margaret?)
[21:15:25] <Suresh Krishnan> Talking about issues with dual stack
[21:15:47] <hartmans> Yes, margaret
[21:16:17] <Suresh Krishnan> (thinks v4 and v6 will coexist for a long time)
[21:16:23] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC(Donald Eastlake)
[21:16:26] <Suresh Krishnan> (thinks the attendance of the IETF is low due to .bomb)
[21:16:28] <Suresh Krishnan> (talks about the naysayers always being around)
[21:16:58] <Suresh Krishnan> (I am at the far end of the room, I can barely see anything)
[21:17:11] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC(Fred Baker)
[21:17:28] <Suresh Krishnan> (talks about Dave's draft)
[21:17:36] <Suresh Krishnan> (people want him to speak louder)
[21:17:53] <Suresh Krishnan> (want a universally accepted definition of spam in Dave's draft)
[21:18:12] <Suresh Krishnan> (talks about a BOF tomorrow about policy driven whitelisting)
[21:18:34] <Suresh Krishnan> (thinks that IETF should apply it to its own lists)
[21:18:45] <Suresh Krishnan> Harald: (about lower attetndance)
[21:19:05] <Suresh Krishnan> (thinks attendance has been going up generally since Minneapolis)
[21:19:08] <Suresh Krishnan> (people laughing)
[21:19:53] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC(?)
[21:20:05] <Suresh Krishnan> (talks about sipping)
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[21:20:12] <grouch> (spencer dawkins)
[21:20:18] <Suresh Krishnan> (everyone wants to touch the packets)
[21:20:23] <Suresh Krishnan> (thanks grouch)
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[21:21:17] <Suresh Krishnan> (talks about the internet evolve to being at a higher level than IP)
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[21:21:50] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC(Jonathan)
[21:22:10] <Suresh Krishnan> We need to find out why people are putting these things on their network and fix those issues
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[21:23:03] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC(Someone from IIJ)
[21:23:59] <Suresh Krishnan> (talks about IPR issues)
[21:24:21] <Suresh Krishnan> Harald: IPR is tricky
[21:24:36] <Suresh Krishnan> We are trying to figure out how to make things easier
[21:25:00] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC(ipr wg chair)
[21:25:41] <Suresh Krishnan> IPR can be a problem. We cannot make it go away. We can just make it easier to deal with.
[21:25:54] <Suresh Krishnan> MIC(Nico Williams)
[21:26:42] <Suresh Krishnan> (talks about how to do legal contracts on the internet)
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[21:27:20] <Suresh Krishnan> ( I guess he is talking about perm?)
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[21:28:07] <Suresh Krishnan> (I don't get what he is trying to say)
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[21:28:46] <Suresh Krishnan> (there will probably be another BOF on the subject)
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[21:29:16] <Suresh Krishnan> Harald: We need informed consensus
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[21:29:58] <Suresh Krishnan> As Bill manning said, we have 1 internet to play with and not 2
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[21:29:59] <Suresh Krishnan> Harald: (Meeting closed)
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[21:30:03] <Suresh Krishnan> (See ya tomorrow)
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[21:30:12] <Suresh Krishnan> (applause)
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[21:30:16] <Suresh Krishnan> <END OF SHOW)
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