IETF
plenary
plenary@jabber.ietf.org
Wednesday, July 31, 2013< ^ >
Jack Moffitt has set the subject to: Plenary @ IETF87, audio stream: http://ietf87streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf874.m3u, Meetecho: http://www.meetecho.com/ietf87/tech_plenary/
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[15:45:53] <hartmans> Have things started?  I don't seem to be hearing audio
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[15:47:50] <Lorenzo Miniero> audio on Meetecho is up and running
[15:48:00] <Lorenzo Miniero> http://www.meetecho.com/ietf87/admin_plenary
[15:48:29] hartmans prefers  rclient-server protocols thanks
[15:48:43] <Lorenzo Miniero> rtsp://meetecho.meeting.ietf.org/7pg7tsk.sdp
[15:48:45] <Lorenzo Miniero> :)
[15:48:49] <hartmans> but you're saying that  there is audio to be heard? that's useful.
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[15:49:14] <Lorenzo Miniero> yes, even though the plenary hasn't started yet
[15:49:21] <Lorenzo Miniero> you'd only hear chattering and bongos
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[15:51:08] <hartmans> 4It was apparently a crappy client on my side
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[15:52:04] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: IETF 87 Administrative Plenary
[15:52:17] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: Agenda
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[15:54:16] <jgunn> A lot of distortion (or something) in the audio for the speaker.  Was NOT there for the background chatter.
[15:54:45] <Alessandro Amirante> jgunn: which audio stream are you listening to?
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[15:55:20] <jgunn> I am listening to the one on the tools agenda
[15:55:45] <Alessandro Amirante> try the Meetecho one, it seems fine to me: rtsp://meetecho.meeting.ietf.org/7pg7tsk.sdp
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[15:56:20] <Alessandro Amirante> you can also watch slides if you browse to http://www.meetecho.com/ietf87/admin_plenary
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[15:59:16] <jgunn> The MEETECHO audio did not work at all for me at AT ALL on Monday, so I am reluctant to try again.
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[15:59:29] <Tobia Castaldi> :D
[15:59:34] <Lorenzo Miniero> well, everybody deserves a second chance... ;)
[15:59:58] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Sponsors
[16:00:55] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: IETF 87 Chair’s Report
[16:01:38] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: Reporting in This Presentation
[16:01:43] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 6: More Reporting Elsewhere
[16:01:51] <Alessandro Amirante> well... let's live with the distortion then! :)
[16:02:18] <jgunn> yes
[16:02:27] Martin L. leaves the room
[16:02:52] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 7: IETF 87 Participants
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[16:04:12] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 8: IESG Membership Update
[16:04:31] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 9: IESG Note Takers
[16:05:21] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 10: The Role of WGs in Final Process Stages
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[16:06:59] <hartmans> Yes!!!!
[16:07:05] <hartmans> Audio much better
[16:07:17] <jgunn> same here
[16:07:28] <SM> Audio is clear
[16:08:06] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 11: Appeals
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[16:09:01] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 12: Mentoring Program
[16:10:06] <Y(J)S> The audio was clipping - now they cut back on the volume and all is well
[16:10:31] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 13: Diversity
[16:10:43] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 14: Motivation for Becoming More Inclusive
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[16:13:48] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 15: The First Actions
[16:14:23] <Y(J)S> What is the connection between diversity and telling someone directly that his/her concept is flawed ?
[16:15:02] <SM> Diplomacy
[16:15:05] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 16: Running Code This Week
[16:15:17] <hartmans> It tends to drive people away. There are ways of giving criticism that are more and less constructive.  Being constructive tends not to cause people to walk away from the process.
[16:15:35] <Y(J)S> Don't worry, people of all kinds from all over the world can be wrong
[16:16:24] <SM> Not in the IETF :-)
[16:16:45] <hartmans> y(j)s: If you would really be interested in listening to a discussion of this, corner me, or e-mail me and I'd be happy to discuss, and I won't even tell you that your ideas about being wrong are flawed, even if I do end up disagreeing with them:-)
[16:17:00] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: Agenda
[16:17:27] <Y(J)S> Of course one needs to be constructive, but speaking stupidly doesn't necessarily alienate people of a certain kind
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[16:17:39] <Lorenzo Miniero> Current presenter: Bob Hinden and Ray Pellettier
[16:17:40] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: Agenda
[16:17:41] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentation stopped
[16:18:59] <Lorenzo Miniero> sorry, this slide deck is not on the materials page...
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[16:19:26] <jgunn> that explains why I can't find it!
[16:19:46] <Lorenzo Miniero> :(
[16:21:07] <Lorenzo Miniero> IETF Attendance by Region
[16:21:26] <Lorenzo Miniero> (just writing the slide titles as a context)
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[16:21:58] <Lorenzo Miniero> Africa, Oceania, South America, Latin America/Caribbean
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[16:22:35] <Lorenzo Miniero> South America IETF Meeting
[16:23:24] <Lorenzo Miniero> Buenos Aires Conclusions
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[16:25:43] <Lorenzo Miniero> Meeting News
[16:26:38] <Lorenzo Miniero> IETF91 Honolulu
[16:27:16] <Lorenzo Miniero> VAT in Berlin
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[16:29:32] <Lorenzo Miniero> Contract News
[16:30:47] <Lorenzo Miniero> Ray Pelletier on IAD
[16:32:08] <Lorenzo Miniero> Henrik Levkowetz
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[16:34:30] <Lorenzo Miniero> Patrik Falstrom
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[16:35:20] <Lorenzo Miniero> Acknowledgements
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[16:36:41] <Lorenzo Miniero> Berlin Sponsors
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[16:38:26] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: IETF Trust Report
[16:38:33] <Lorenzo Miniero> Current presenter: Chrid Griffiths
[16:38:34] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: IETF Trust Report
[16:38:38] <Lorenzo Miniero> Current presenter: Chris Griffiths
[16:38:39] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: IETF Trust Report
[16:38:40] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: License
[16:38:56] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Subpoenas
[16:39:13] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: Requesting Feedback
[16:39:49] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: Issue #1
[16:40:27] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 6: Issue #2
[16:41:14] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 7: Issue #3
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[16:41:52] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 8: Requesting Feedback
[16:42:09] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 9: Thank You!
[16:42:28] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentation stopped
[16:42:44] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: IETF Nominating Committee Report 
[16:42:48] <Lorenzo Miniero> Current presenter: Allison Mankin
[16:42:49] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: IETF Nominating Committee Report 
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[16:43:24] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: Nomcom Process 
[16:43:47] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Nomcom Information
[16:45:15] KY leaves the room
[16:45:29] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: Open Positions/Incumbents List 
[16:45:52] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: How You Can Help
[16:47:18] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 6: Nomcom 2013 Composition
[16:48:28] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 7: How You Can Help – Nominate/Self�
[16:49:01] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 8: How You Can Help: Feedback
[16:49:58] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 9: Finally
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[16:51:08] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentation stopped
[16:51:20] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: 2013
 Jonathan B. Postel Service Award
[16:51:54] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 0: ??
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[16:52:15] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 1: 2013
 Jonathan B. Postel Service Award
[16:52:18] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 2: Jonathan B. Postel"
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[16:54:58] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 3: Jonathan B. Postel Service Award!
[16:55:17] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 4: Jonathan B. Postel Service Award
 Past
[16:56:05] <Lorenzo Miniero> Slide 5: Jonathan B. Postel Service Award
 2013
[16:56:16] <Lorenzo Miniero> The winner is: Elizabeth Feinler
[16:57:37] <Simon Romano> Congrats to Elizabeth: you're ruoss!
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[17:07:41] <Lorenzo Miniero> Presentation stopped
[17:08:05] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 1: Recognition
[17:08:10] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 2: Hugh Daniel
[17:08:51] <Alessandro Amirante> Slide 3: Evi Nemeth
[17:10:12] <Alessandro Amirante> Presentation stopped
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[17:11:05] <Lorenzo Miniero> sorry again, but these slides don't seem to be on the materials page either...
[17:11:16] <Lorenzo Miniero> Kathleen Moriarty presenting
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[17:11:28] <Lorenzo Miniero> Why do we want to improve inclusivity?
[17:12:21] <John Klensin> Lorenco, Meetecho seems to be showing the wrong slides and the wrong "current presenter"
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[17:12:39] <Lorenzo Miniero> yes, as I just said, these slides are not on the materials page
[17:12:47] <Lorenzo Miniero> so we couldn't upload them
[17:13:06] <Lorenzo Miniero> I'm just giving slide titles right now to give context to the talk
[17:13:11] <Lorenzo Miniero> Monocultural vs Multicultural
[17:13:20] <John Klensin> Ah.  Didn't realize you weren't pointing at the second screen.
[17:13:49] <Lorenzo Miniero> sorry :(
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[17:14:03] <SM> Don't say sorry, buy beer:)
[17:14:11] <Lorenzo Miniero> I've checked if they were uploaded in the meanwhile but they weren't
[17:14:15] <Lorenzo Miniero> SM :D
[17:14:31] <Lorenzo Miniero> lucky me that in Berlin it's so cheap then!
[17:14:50] <SM> Which beer would you recommend afetr extensive research?
[17:14:56] <Lorenzo Miniero> Issues that have been commonly raised
[17:15:00] <John Klensin> Actually, I didn't whine at you until I double-checked that.
[17:15:15] <Lorenzo Miniero> I know but I feel sorry anyeway :)
[17:15:32] <SM> Now you will convince me to buy you a beer:)
[17:15:34] <Alessandro Amirante> ...so, let's buy Lorenzo a beer!
[17:15:41] <Lorenzo Miniero> SM wouldn't really know, just had tap beers so far ;)
[17:15:42] <Alessandro Amirante> exactly! ;)
[17:15:46] <SM> Good idea, Alessandro
[17:16:24] <John Klensin> Mic (when appropriate): Why couldn't the diversity effort, which should be more sensitive to this than anyone, be bothered to get its presentation slides uploaded in advance of the plenary?
[17:17:42] <Lorenzo Miniero> Design Team Initiatives
[17:17:58] <Simon Romano> John...do you really want us to relay? :-)
[17:18:07] <SM> Yes, he does:)
[17:18:13] <Simon Romano> Doh!
[17:18:26] <Alessandro Amirante> ok... Simon will channel it!
[17:19:04] <John Klensin> Yes.  But please blame me -- rude comments shouldn't come from you... and you deserved the beer anyway.
[17:19:24] <SM> Well, John already explaiend about the I in the IETF :-)
[17:19:25] <Tobia Castaldi> :D
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[17:20:28] <Lorenzo Miniero> Initiatives Cont.
[17:21:07] Ted Lemon joins the room
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[17:22:52] <Lorenzo Miniero> Other Positive Initiatives
[17:23:13] <eburger> Quick Q: "outreach programs with financial support similar to the ISOC Fellowships": does this mean money from IAOC or ISOC. I'm sure ISOC would support, but it would be interesting to know what the plan is.
[17:23:24] <Lorenzo Miniero> We'd love to hear from you
[17:23:36] <Lorenzo Miniero> questions time :)
[17:23:47] <SM> Eric, I think it means ISOC
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[17:24:12] <John Klensin> Does she have a clue that she just asked for feedback from an audience that can't see the link she put on the screen?
[17:24:13] <eburger> Works for me, and I would support it.
[17:24:22] <SM> John :-)
[17:25:02] <Lorenzo Miniero> diversity-dt@ietf.org for input, diversity@ietf.org to participate :)
[17:25:06] <SM> Eric, it is a suggestion.  The practical details would have to be explored
[17:25:09] <John Leslie> ++JCK
[17:25:51] <SM> Who is at the mic?
[17:25:56] <Ted Lemon> We are aware that the tools need to be updated to make it easier to get access to meeting materials.
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[17:26:22] <Hosnieh> Suresh is at the mic
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[17:26:29] <SM> No, before that
[17:26:36] <SM> I meant at the mic line
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[17:26:42] <SM> Hi Hosnieh
[17:26:54] <Hosnieh> Hi
[17:28:45] <bernie> @SM: It was me (Bernie Hoeneisen)
[17:28:54] <SM> Thanks Bernie
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[17:31:10] <JcK> Mic: followup:  I'm not interested in "fault" or assigning blame.  The problem is first that it didn't happen and second that the presentation assumed that the audience could see things (like the feedback links/information) that it had no possible way to access.
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[17:32:41] <JcK> Mic: And, Kathleen, for calibration, do you consider my questions about this to be either inappropriate or two aggressive.
[17:33:01] <SM> Good question
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[17:33:33] <Simon Romano> Oooooook John, I'm going :-)
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[17:33:50] <Lorenzo Miniero> wear a "don't shoot the messenger" shirt :)
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[17:37:39] <John Klensin> @Lorenzo, rather than buying beer, I promise to have hats with that logo printed for Vancouver, to be dispensed to those who channel Jabber comments to the microphone.
[17:38:02] <Lorenzo Miniero> :D
[17:38:05] <Olle E. Johansson> Yes, cool hats for jabber scribes gets a +1
[17:38:16] <John Klensin> Incidentally, having the camera pointed to those who can't be bothered to identify themselves on audio is hugely helpful.
[17:38:28] <SM> Lorenzo, it is a trap.  Stay on the beer offer
[17:38:44] <marcos> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3184
[17:38:51] <Lorenzo Miniero> actually Harald Alvestrand is speaking right now and he's not in the video :)
[17:38:55] <Lorenzo Miniero> too far to capture
[17:38:58] <marcos> We already have that one. But sincerely? I don't think is being followed.
[17:39:00] <Lorenzo Miniero> the one you see in line is Simon
[17:39:13] <John Klensin> Yes, I just recognized his voice and noticed it wasn't his face.
[17:39:14] <Olle E. Johansson> I am sure that if we gather a few Swedes around here we can capture Harald.
[17:39:18] <SM> Marcos, there are bugs in that BCP
[17:39:33] <Lorenzo Miniero> Olle :D
[17:40:22] <Lorenzo Miniero> Paul Hoffman speaking now
[17:40:29] <marcos> SM: I am not happy with it completely and it's pretty old, but it's what we have
[17:41:12] <SM> Marcos, it is hard to determine where to go from now
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[17:41:26] <marcos> Yes, it is.
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[17:42:02] <marcos> By pointing at BCP54 I only wanted to answer the question of somebody at the mike whether there are some documents talking about culture beyond TAO
[17:42:04] <SM> Harald mentioned one of the problems.  
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[17:47:37] <eburger> I would offer that Keith has a point: don't throw out the baby with the bath water. However, things are so bad that we do need a bit of a shock to the system. Can't we just try to play nice? It can work wonders and it will not break any protocols.
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[17:48:20] <Simon Romano> +1 to eburger
[17:50:23] <Lorenzo Miniero> IAOC Open Mic
[17:50:51] <Arturo Servin> "Can't we just try to play nice" that is the formula. Much of the bad ruddiness that I have seen is because one of the parties try to take advantage of its position. That could be knowledge, language, etc., that is not fair game
[17:51:06] <Ted Lemon> I think when Keith was saying it should be 50-50, that was good.   We can try to do our best to be careful about what we say.   And we will still screw up.   But I think we will screw up less.   If you aren't even thinking about it, you don't try to do anything about it.
[17:51:57] <SM> Wasn't it about a persumption of good faith?
[17:53:02] <Arturo Servin> Yes, 50-50. But I have witness some clear abuses, and still happens
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[17:55:32] <Ted Lemon> Best is the enemy of good enough.
[17:56:00] <JcK> @eberger and keith:  I also suggest that a private and constructive comment to someone that he or she is appearing too aggressive or acting in a way that could be construed as jerk-like will generally be helpful and well received.  If it leads to a private discussion, so much the better.    If someone really is determined to be a jerk, that is a different problem, of course, but that  is part of "be nice" and "good faith".
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[17:58:18] <JcK> Mic: if we are going to continue to have national tax issues, it may be advantageous to explicitly separate the portion of the registration fee that covers the meeting from the portion that covers IETF overhead.  There may be other reasons to do that as well.
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[18:01:34] <mohd hafiz> hi
[18:01:47] <SM> Hello
[18:01:49] <Ted Lemon> Why are we still talking about VAT?
[18:02:14] <SM> The IAOC asked for feedback
[18:02:39] <mohd hafiz> woo can i know wtf is VAT
[18:02:46] <Ted Lemon> Value Added Tax
[18:02:51] <Ted Lemon> About $130 this time, I think.
[18:02:55] <SM> It is an input tax used in the European Union
[18:03:03] <mohd hafiz> oooo
[18:03:47] <mohd hafiz> im from asia... hehe..
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[18:03:51] <Hosnieh> What do they want to do now? get this value again from people?
[18:04:02] <SM> Mohd, are you remote?
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[18:04:34] <SM> Hosnieh, they are talking about whetehr you make you pay 20% more for the attendance
[18:04:46] <Lorenzo Miniero> IESG Open Mic
[18:04:53] <JcK> thanks for both that comment (about bringing the remote participant in) and again to Lorenzo for doing it.
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[18:05:21] <Hosnieh> @SM: thx
[18:06:02] <JcK> Hosnieh lives in Germany -- they get her either way :-(
[18:06:16] <bernie> (for this IETF) companies of attendees can recover VAT, if receipts are issued stating the amount of VAT the invoice included (i.e. the amount paid by the IETF), if refund is possible at all
[18:06:21] mohd hafiz leaves the room
[18:06:23] <Lorenzo Miniero> we're glad to be of help John :)
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[18:07:03] <jgunn> goodbye
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[18:07:54] <Hosnieh> @John: I will hide... :) like now that I am remote attendees :)
[18:08:52] <JcK> @Lorenzo, while I always appreciate superhuman efforts, expecting you to simultaneously coordinate Meetecho, act as Jabber scribe, and run to the mic to channel remote participants is a little unreasonable.  I will comment on this to the IETG.
[18:09:17] <SM> The meetecho team is nice:)
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[18:09:33] <Alessandro Amirante> let's buy them beers!
[18:09:46] <Simon Romano> Let's buy them!
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[18:09:52] <Alessandro Amirante> +1
[18:10:00] <Lorenzo Miniero> (unbiased opinions huh?? ;) )
[18:10:07] <SM> Yes:)
[18:10:22] <Lorenzo Miniero> thanks SM :)
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[18:11:11] <JcK> If someone wants to buy them a round on me, I'll figure out a way to settle up with them.
[18:11:13] <Hosnieh> I don't know.. do you have a problem of disconnection.. it's my first time attend remotely and I've already had 5 times disconnection...
[18:11:14] Chris joins the room
[18:11:29] <SM> Hosnieh, no
[18:11:35] Chris leaves the room
[18:11:38] <SM> Are you using Meetcho?
[18:11:45] <Hosnieh> yes I am...
[18:11:54] <Lorenzo Miniero> no need John, thanks anyway :D
[18:12:16] <SM> Hosnieh, do you lose the audio stream?
[18:12:24] <Hosnieh> both
[18:12:29] <JcK> @Hosnieh: no problems here.  Using Meetecho locally for audio and video and running Jabber both separately and in their window (will explain why to them separately)
[18:12:30] <Hosnieh> audio and video
[18:12:36] <SM> Connectivity issues, Lorenzo?
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[18:12:44] <Lorenzo Miniero> is the stream stopping or the whole page shutting off?
[18:13:03] <Lorenzo Miniero> this sounds like a connectivity issue though, yes
[18:13:21] <Lorenzo Miniero> we'll have a look at the logs later
[18:13:21] Chris leaves the room
[18:13:46] <Hosnieh> unfortunately I don't have jabber account... and I tried to register but their closed the registration for maintanance
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[18:14:12] <SM> Hosnieh, you can get one from Jabber.org
[18:14:42] <Hosnieh> Yes I know... but they are maintaining their servers and they do not register any new user :(
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[18:15:19] <Lorenzo Miniero> you can use any account on any jabber server that can connect to jabber.ietf.org to join a room there actually
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[18:19:46] <SM> Hmm, I cannot connect to the stream
[18:20:02] <Lorenzo Miniero> is it not starting?
[18:20:13] <SM> It is not starting, connectivity
[18:20:33] <Lorenzo Miniero> I've just tried to open the video stream from here and it works fine
[18:20:43] <Lorenzo Miniero> so it should be up and running
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[18:20:55] <SM> I lost the remote audio (legacy) too
[18:20:58] <Lorenzo Miniero> does any of the other alternatives work instead?
[18:20:59] <Hosnieh> I am also still connected... suddenly It stops...
[18:21:14] <Lorenzo Miniero> RTSP, HTML5, etc
[18:21:25] <SM> Flash:)
[18:21:33] <Hosnieh> Yes.. I use flash
[18:21:51] <Alessandro Amirante> I'm attached to the RTSP stream, and it works well
[18:22:04] <SM> URI?
[18:22:06] <Lorenzo Miniero> have you tried either RTSP or HTML5 as well to see if those work instead?
[18:22:16] <Lorenzo Miniero> they're audio only but they'd be better than nothing
[18:22:19] <Alessandro Amirante> probably it's just a way to tell us that we should go to dinner...!
[18:22:35] <Lorenzo Miniero> they're both listed in the Audio/Video popcorn section
[18:22:44] <Lorenzo Miniero> that's probably it Alex ;)
[18:22:46] <Hosnieh> I want to join
[18:22:53] <Hosnieh> :)
[18:22:56] <SM> Ah, it is back, thanks, Lorenzo
[18:23:12] <SM> Hosnieh, close the video window and click again
[18:23:19] weiler leaves the room
[18:23:21] <Alessandro Amirante> he didn't do anything! stop congratulating with him!!! :))))
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[18:23:29] <Simon Romano> See you guys!
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[18:23:38] <SM> Thanks to you both, enjoy the tap:)
[18:23:40] <Lorenzo Miniero> ahahah let me feel better abut it anyway!
[18:23:45] <Tobia Castaldi> bye all
[18:23:45] <Alessandro Amirante> bye everybody...
[18:23:45] <Simon Romano> Thanks for being with us ;-)
[18:23:48] <JcK> Thanks to all.  
[18:23:52] <Hosnieh> thanks
[18:23:53] JcK leaves the room
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[18:24:03] <Lorenzo Miniero> we're done, recordings available ASAP
[18:24:11] <Lorenzo Miniero> thanks for your support John!
[18:24:17] SM leaves the room
[18:24:18] <Lorenzo Miniero> bye everybody!
[18:24:22] sm leaves the room
[18:24:36] <Hosnieh> bye and thanks
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