[00:00:19] <tale > brong wants to know your location and send notifications.  allow or deny?    DENY DENY DENY
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[00:00:42] <brong> [SEND NOTIFICATIONS {Y/Y}]
[00:01:08] Ted Lemon joins the room
[00:01:15] <metricamerica> This is Mike Jenkins. My (web) client said my mic was muted, so not sure what was going on. It's been fine for all of the other sessions I've been in. Sorry for the disturbance - I'm out now.
[00:01:18] <KurtA-laptop> brong: only accept cookies that have been sneezed upon
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[00:03:46] <brong> Kurta the silent sneeze
[00:03:54] <lpardue> thank you ADs
[00:03:55] <adam> Sorry, Murray.
[00:04:01] Ted Lemon leaves the room
[00:04:10] <brong> oh yay, animated slides via webex
[00:04:19] <adam> I AM GIVING MY BEARD TO MURRAY
[00:04:24] <msk> Adam and Alexey: mail me your dots.
[00:04:53] <Christian Huitema> Not IAB Chair. Chefin. "IETF: Das Internet Architecture Board bekommt neue Chefin." https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/IETF-Das-Internet-Architecture-Board-bekommt-neue-Chefin-4689496.html
[00:04:53] <Klensin> @adam: be careful.  Murray could retroactively designate you shepherd and return you to the AUTH48 process.
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[00:05:09] <Ted Lemon> Q: is there a conflict of interest in having two INT ads named Eri[ck]?
[00:05:28] <Jim Fenton> Not if one has an accent on the E
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[00:05:32] <ben@nostrum.com> @Klensin: Not until we update the proto process to allow involuntary drafting of shepherds :-)
[00:05:37] <msk> Klensin: muahah.
[00:05:39] <cabo> Imagine if we had Eric and Éric
[00:05:46] <Jim Fenton> Nomcom did
[00:05:47] <Ted Lemon> Mayhem!
[00:05:47] <Seth Blank> The ART AD dot comes with a beard
[00:05:49] <mcr> open-stand.org (not openstand.org)
[00:05:49] <kaduk@jabber.openafs.org/barnowl> Does that count as "confusable"s?
[00:05:52] dino leaves the room
[00:06:01] <Larry> I tried to get W3C AB to reference OpenStand and got pushback
[00:06:02] <Warren Kumari> @Ted: Nope, we dealt with that with a Ben and a Benjamin…
[00:06:04] <jhaas> At least no Èric
[00:06:05] dino joins the room
[00:06:11] <Martin Thomson> Can the ANIMA WG self identify please?
[00:06:17] <jhoyla> Depends if we allow non-Ascii names :P
[00:06:26] Ted Lemon leaves the room
[00:06:33] <jhoyla> ASCII*
[00:06:46] <Larry> the pushback I got was "it wasn't agreed to in an open way"
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[00:06:58] <mcr> I assume it is either Toerless or Sheng.
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[00:07:03] <kaduk@jabber.openafs.org/barnowl> Webex is notorious for having a very sticky name
[00:07:12] <Eric Kinnear> from ANIMA Working Group to Everyone:    5:06  PM
(This is toerless, apologize for wrong choice of name here by webex)
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[00:07:23] <Mark Baushke (Juniper)> SDOs?
[00:07:33] <brong> Standards Development Orgs
[00:07:37] <John Scudder> Standards Development Organizations
[00:07:40] <Mark Baushke (Juniper)> @brong: thanks
[00:07:40] <mcr> @Larry, can you detail what the objections were?
[00:07:51] <sftcd> see RFC2804
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[00:08:21] <Toerless Eckert> sigh…
[00:08:24] <cabo> Toerless Eckert: If you are logged in, you need to use the Browser interface and spend some special effort to get your real name in there
[00:08:28] <Toerless Eckert> how do i change the username in webex ?
[00:08:37] <Toerless Eckert> yeah, juts looking
[00:08:45] <jhoyla> Use Incognito?
[00:08:55] <Toerless Eckert> it was working fine the two prior webex i was on
[00:09:01] Ted Lemon leaves the room
[00:09:11] <Toerless Eckert> then i went to datatracker, requested my groups virtual meeting,
[00:09:22] <mcr> right, and then you logged into webex site.
[00:09:23] <Toerless Eckert> and somehow that datatracker cookie got into webex…
[00:09:26] <Larry> https://github.com/w3c/w3process/issues/325#issuecomment-528503545
[00:09:34] <mcr> no, you had to login to manage webex, so webex remembered that.
[00:09:45] <jimsch1> I had to clear out my credentials from Firefox to get it to stop
[00:09:58] <Pete Resnick> 5G is someone else's layer, isn't it?
[00:10:08] <SM> Pete, Yes
[00:10:09] <Toerless Eckert> hmm… i didn't do anything explicitly in webex, but requesting the side meeting in datatracker brought up some webex call URL
[00:10:10] <stpeter> Write an I-D defining the problem?
[00:10:51] <hta> IETF could output an RFC saying "anything passed over 5G MUST be encrypted end to end"...
[00:10:53] <aretana> @toerless: it seems to be a Webex bug/feature, where they remember you for specific “sites”.  I am the “Routing Area” when using ietf.webex.com <http://ietf.webex.com> meetings, but am able to change my name for others.
[00:10:55] <spencerdawkins> @Pete, it's not like we don't have a liaison relationship with 3GPP. Seems like they should be saying something?
[00:11:29] <jhoyla> Hmm, Webices?
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[00:12:03] <Ted.h> @hta I think we have advice that protocols should be encrypted over the Internet, irrespective of the capabilities of the layers below us.  So, I think the 5g issue would be covered by that.
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[00:12:32] <joehall> @hta +1
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[00:13:03] <Jared Mauch> *chuckles at the idea of asking operators to MUST encrypt all data - it has a cost that isn't something that people who pay the bills will bear*
[00:13:05] <hta> yeah, we shouldn't trust anyone, especially not ourselves.
[00:13:23] <kaduk@jabber.openafs.org/barnowl> Jared: you just don't accept data that isn't already encrypted ;)
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[00:14:12] <Jari Arkko> anyone can create an etherpad page at etherpad.ietf.org
[00:14:18] <stpeter> The Jabber rooms are always open for business.
[00:14:19] <Jari Arkko> (I use it regularly for my dt)
[00:14:28] <Jari Arkko> jabber rooms etc are a different matter
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[00:17:07] <Jared Mauch> @kaduk don't get me started on the disconnect between reality that exists here :-)
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[00:17:37] <Jared Mauch> and +100 this q
[00:17:46] <mcr> +3 on what Stewart is saying.  But, btw, it applies to TSV and ART reviews as well,btw.
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[00:18:12] <Jared Mauch> the tone of SECURITY KNOWS BEST here is bugging me :-)
[00:18:18] <Jared Mauch> but I'll talk to Ben later :-)
[00:18:35] <Klensin> +several on what Stewart is saying -- applies to almost all review teams when i18n issues are concerned.
[00:18:49] <Christian Huitema> Doing security reviews of the routing documents generally requires reading 1000 pages of background
[00:19:26] <Klensin> @Christian: then let's stop pretending those are competent/ useful reviews and figure out what to do about that.
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[00:19:29] <mcr> RTG or ART or INT will have a whole series of documents which are going to be reviewed, and having different people do secdir reviews is very unhelpful, because we have to train many people poorly.
[00:19:35] <Christian Huitema> And then being told that security does not matter because the protocols run in a "close" network
[00:19:36] <Mark Baushke (Juniper)> +1 Hmmm... I do security and understand routing somewhat. Finding out which routing draft actually needs a security review can be tough.
[00:19:44] <John Scudder> Doing meaningful review of any non-trivial document generally requires some domain expertise, does it not?
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[00:20:06] <mcr> +1 on what Christian says, but at the same time, it's a deployed protocol.
[00:20:15] <Jared Mauch> correct. but knowing what the platforms are capable of is also important.. things that can do H2 aren't the same that do routing protocols :-)
[00:20:15] <Mark Baushke (Juniper)> @John exactly. multiple domain expertise is needed.
[00:20:28] <Klensin> @John Scudder: I think that has been our experience.  I don't know why it keeps surprising us.
[00:20:44] <Jared Mauch> I think it's surprising because we think the security people might learn about it :-)
[00:20:50] <Joel Halpern> @John Scudder it depends upon what one means by meanignful review.  You would be amazed at the iternal inconsistencies that a general area reviewer can (and has) found in many documents from many areas.  At the same time, substantive review doe requrie technical understanding.
[00:20:52] <jhaas> You mean we're often siloed subject matter experts?
[00:20:52] jhaas shock
[00:21:00] <Jared Mauch> hehe
[00:21:03] <mcr> so, btw, I'm a sec guy (never been on secdir, never got asked), but I'm on the RTG area review.  This is because I did a sec review of a RTG document in 2007.
[00:21:15] <John Scudder> @Jared and they think we might learn something about security. Same song, different verse. Tune in again for the next verse at 108.
[00:21:18] <Christian Huitema> There is actually a lot of value in "a look from the outside". It is just very hard to do.
[00:21:21] <Jared Mauch> :-)
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[00:22:08] <jhaas> I've griped more than once that as an org, we're in desperate need for roadmap docs for technology suites
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[00:22:10] <brong> +1 on Stewart's comment here
[00:22:21] <Jari Arkko> Stewart: i don't disagree with the point of needing knowledge of both domains for useful review. but this may also be relevant: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-farrell-arch-model-t-03#section-3.2.1
[00:22:22] <Mark Baushke (Juniper)> +1 @jhaas
[00:22:25] <jhaas> and I've certainly been volunteered into trying to do more than one and have never found the time to do it
[00:22:28] <brong> I've had questions which are "anyone who already knows the base spec knows this
[00:22:33] <Ted Lemon> My experience with this on the IESG is that the routing area documents were largely impenetrable and could definitely have been written better.
[00:22:36] <jhaas> and thus the problem perpetuates
[00:22:37] <John Scudder> @Christian a really good look from the outside by a diligent and talented reviewer can be valuable. A drive-by can be… tiresome.
[00:22:47] <dkg> good reviews are hard, period.  and getting a detailed review from a smart person who is outside the field is a major work of charity
[00:23:03] <ek> +1
[00:23:05] <dkg> complaining that someone else is doing a review is ungrateful
[00:23:13] <dkg> that is, Mirja++
[00:23:17] <Ted Lemon> Yup
[00:23:32] <Brian> mirja ++ ++
[00:23:41] <sureshk@jabber.org> +1 Mirja
[00:23:43] <mcr> just to say, I have been victim of drive-by reviews, in which I was totally unable to engage the reviewers, some of whom are on this thread, to know if I was satisfying them.  
[00:23:46] <Mark Baushke (Juniper)> +1 mirja - a good review is usually hard to do
[00:23:47] <mnot> +1 Mirja
[00:23:49] <Jean Mahoney> +1 mirja
[00:23:53] <Joel Halpern> Some of the routing protocols have had a tendency not only to assume familiarity with the underlying protoco,, but to assume current full conversancy with the discussion and ways of looking at things current in the working group.  Which is really inappropriate, as someone who is not participating in the IetF needs to be able to understand the documents.
[00:23:55] <mcr> engaged reviews are really helpful.
[00:24:12] <mnot> Joel - +1
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[00:24:46] <jhaas> @joel part of the issue is that most of our docs are incremental diffs of a tech rather than a re-issue that adds the feature.  Thus review of the doc means "here's a full suite you need familiarity with"
[00:24:57] <John Scudder> @Joel yes, it goes both ways. I have reviewed waaaay too many documents that still had "TBD" stubbed into their security considerations when on the cusp of WGLC.
[00:24:59] <mcr> 7/10 of routing documents are allocating a FOO attribute from the BAR registry, and saying that it will be used by XYZ users ... and they really don't need a security review.
[00:25:06] <mnot> DNS is like that too.
[00:25:18] <Mark Baushke (Juniper)> +1 Tony ISOC participation was a good thing to promote
[00:25:18] <Toerless Eckert> +1 on joel. if you are lucky you can implement a protocol from a routing WG RFC, but you may still not understand what the protocol does ;-)
[00:25:59] <Klensin> @Suresh: Not only have I had similar experiences, but I know people who have been document authors who dropped out of the IETF after experiences like that.  No criticism of those who are trying really hard but miss the mark, but the drive-by stuff, especially with an update to an existing document, gets really demoralizing.
[00:26:03] <Toerless Eckert> (that was cynical of course)
[00:27:00] <Mark Baushke (Juniper)> Audio issues for Ted?
[00:27:31] <ek> I heard weirdness for a bit there
[00:27:48] <Larry> it helps to envision the groups sitting lined up in a virtual dias
[00:27:55] joehall leaves the room
[00:27:56] <Mark Baushke (Juniper)> :-)
[00:28:01] <Joel Halpern> I get just as annoyed at drive-by reviews.  Even if the reviewer knows their stuff, if they find issues they need to engage.  I will also note that an outside reviewer needs to be prepared to be told "no, the words really do mean this other thing."  I have made those mistakes, and tried to listen to the authors / WG when they responded.  But some of the documents are amazingly written.  And not in a good way.
[00:28:12] <Andrew Sullivan> @Larry: I had to re-parse that as "tied up on"
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[00:28:30] <Toerless Eckert> so, how do we do standing ovation
[00:28:41] <Toerless Eckert> should we all click on the raise hand button in webex ? ;-)
[00:28:46] <Jared Mauch> ship cookies to people :-)
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[00:28:59] <Jared Mauch> the true IETF currency of gratitude
[00:29:26] <Ted Lemon> Mirja has 1 minute!
[00:29:27] <kaduk@jabber.openafs.org/barnowl> Joel: We have an action item to work on keeping review threads
engaged.  It can cut both ways
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[00:30:11] <Martin Thomson> And Colin Perkins as IRTF chair and ex-officio
[00:30:16] <Joel Halpern> @Ben - yes, I have seen it fail from both ends.  And some other unfortunate failures.  And some real successes.
[00:30:20] <kaduk@jabber.openafs.org/barnowl> I sympathize about the frustration of drive-by reviews and hope the
ADs in question can try to mediate when needed
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[00:31:36] <Joel Halpern> ETSI ISGs have interestingly problematic properties.  Such as being established when almost the entire ETSI board opposes them.
[00:31:51] <hta> Just like W3C Community Groups?
[00:32:34] <Larry> i tried starting a W3C community group for covid-19 going online
[00:32:54] <stewart@jabber.today> The reason that we do not have a relationship with ETSI is that it is regional and we normally only have liaison with global organizations
[00:33:04] <Larry> https://www.w3.org/community/covid-19/
[00:33:39] <John Levine> there's a bunch of ETSI liason statements at https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/
[00:33:59] <Klensin> @Ben: unfortunately, while we've been talking about reviews, it is fortunately rare but we also occasionally see drive-by DISCUSSes and refusal to be listen closely enought to calibrate or be educated
[00:34:03] <spencerdawkins> For extra credit, ALL the SDOs are being affected by CoViD-19, and are doing things like 3GPP trying to move off all-face-to-face to all-virtual without coming to a complete standstill. So the world is changing at both ends of every liaison relationship the IAB manages.
IMO, of course.
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[00:34:34] <sureshk@jabber.org> Last time I went to a 3GPP meeting everything was on a 10.0.0.0/8 network
[00:34:44] <sureshk@jabber.org> with no external connectivity
[00:34:49] <John Scudder> @klensin that is true. As you say, rare.
[00:35:15] <spencerdawkins> Suresh - they were in January - with external connectivity - but they sure as heck aren't now!
[00:35:17] <ek> @sureshk same
[00:35:44] <stewart@jabber.today> Is the use of 10.0.0.0/8 real or is it just conforming to oure requiremenst in the use of example
[00:36:16] <spencerdawkins> No, it's RFC1918.
[00:36:33] <hta> our requirements for use of example have something in the 161.x.x.x range
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[00:37:18] <Joel Halpern> Anyone know if there will be responsse from the plenary to Mike St. John's email?
[00:37:43] <Larry> https://www.w3.org/community/covid-19/
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[00:38:09] <Ted.h> @Joel There was a response by email.
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[00:38:35] <John Scudder> @joel sound like that would be a "no"?
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[00:38:46] <John Scudder> oh, never mind
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[00:39:01] <MarcoSIDN@Home> Thanks, bye!
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[00:39:04] <Brad Biddle> Thanks & bye everyone!
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[00:39:08] <tale > badda bing badda ddone
[00:39:08] <hta> virtual beer.....
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[00:39:13] <Toerless Eckert> Ok, we can switch off the Internet for tonight.
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[00:39:23] <neednnelg@sure.im> Good night all
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[00:39:23] <brong> everybody say goodbye
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[00:39:37] <Brian> goodbye everybody
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[00:39:43] <lpardue> @brong mic: bye
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[00:39:49] <brong> haha
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[00:39:56] <brong> sorry I already dropped
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[00:40:20] <lpardue> I'll remember that
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[00:49:30] <Bob Moskowitz> Well I did my math wrong and went to dinner and missed the plenary.  Oh well.  See folks in tomorrow's sessions.
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