IETF
saag
saag@jabber.ietf.org
Thursday, November 13, 2014< ^ >
sftcd has set the subject to: SAAG at IETF90: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/90/agenda/saag/
Room Configuration
Room Occupants

GMT+0
[19:09:28] nico joins the room
[22:41:52] DanYork joins the room
[22:47:34] Yoav Nir joins the room
[22:48:12] DanYork leaves the room
[22:53:32] danny joins the room
[22:54:11] bortzmeyer joins the room
[22:54:37] bortzmeyer has set the subject to: SAAG at IETF91: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/91/agenda/saag/
[22:57:15] Danny Mayer joins the room
[22:57:27] Tony Hansen joins the room
[22:57:51] Meetecho joins the room
[22:58:08] Bill Mills joins the room
[22:58:33] <danny> any audio?
[22:58:50] Dave Crocker joins the room
[22:59:06] Danny Mayer leaves the room
[22:59:23] bortzmeyer leaves the room: Replaced by new connection
[22:59:24] bortzmeyer joins the room
[22:59:41] yaron.sheffer joins the room
[22:59:44] <Bill Mills> just joined, have not heard any yet
[22:59:53] <bortzmeyer> Bill Mills: not started yet
[22:59:59] Danny Mayer joins the room
[23:00:03] Rick Andrews joins the room
[23:00:04] <Tony Hansen> "is anybody out there?"
[23:00:40] Jonathan Lennox joins the room
[23:00:57] DanYork joins the room
[23:01:01] g m joins the room
[23:01:17] <Yoav Nir> Do you hear the audio now?
[23:01:21] Rick Andrews leaves the room
[23:01:40] Rick Andrews joins the room
[23:01:46] <bortzmeyer> Bill Mills: it started
[23:01:58] <Rick Andrews> I have no audio
[23:02:15] Joe joins the room
[23:02:19] <Yoav Nir> Anyone has the audio/
[23:02:21] <Yoav Nir> ?
[23:02:26] <yaron.sheffer> I have good audio on the streaming
[23:02:34] Edward Lopez joins the room
[23:02:41] <Yoav Nir> Hi, Yaron
[23:02:44] <yaron.sheffer> Hi!
[23:02:46] Danny Mayer leaves the room
[23:03:01] Rick Andrews leaves the room
[23:03:11] <danny> audio is timing out
[23:03:13] Rick Andrews joins the room
[23:03:24] <Tony Hansen> no audio for me -- restarting the connection
[23:03:28] Tony Hansen leaves the room
[23:03:38] danny leaves the room
[23:03:50] <Rick Andrews> Left room and re-entered - still no audio
[23:03:51] <Dave Crocker> the best security is no connection.  saag audio is therefore perfect.
[23:03:59] tony hansen joins the room
[23:04:08] <Dave Crocker> meetecho says they are working on audio.
[23:04:12] satoru.kanno@jabber.org joins the room
[23:04:16] Hugo Kobayashi joins the room
[23:04:22] <yaron.sheffer> http://ietf91streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf913.m3u
[23:04:48] <Dave Crocker> @yaron:  nice to have redundant paths.
[23:04:48] <Rick Andrews> That doesn't work for me because my company blocks Dynamic DNS sites
[23:05:20] <tony hansen> how bad is the audio m3u delay ? It had a 15s lag the other day
[23:05:30] <Rick Andrews> There is some audio, but it's super low. Can't make out anything.
[23:05:48] Dan Wing joins the room
[23:06:02] danny joins the room
[23:06:31] <Rick Andrews> Ah - now I have audio!
[23:06:52] Kathleen Moriarty joins the room
[23:06:56] <danny> it's flakey
[23:06:58] <tony hansen> i just got audio as well
[23:07:02] <Rick Andrews> Thanks, MeetEcho
[23:07:08] <Meetecho> sorry about that, mixer issue
[23:07:12] <Meetecho> should be fixed now
[23:08:02] DanYork joins the room
[23:08:09] Niels ten Oever joins the room
[23:08:28] Alissa Cooper joins the room
[23:08:51] <Rick Andrews> Just lost audio
[23:09:18] Rick Andrews leaves the room
[23:09:29] Rick Andrews joins the room
[23:09:57] <tony hansen> ditto
[23:10:09] <Rick Andrews> Exited and re-entered - audio is back
[23:11:12] Joana Varon joins the room
[23:11:12] Joana Varon joins the room
[23:11:55] tony hansen leaves the room
[23:12:20] <Alissa Cooper> is someone jabber scribing?
[23:12:23] tony hansen joins the room
[23:12:51] <tony hansen> re-entering brought my audio back too
[23:13:01] m&m joins the room
[23:13:07] Yoshiro Yoneya joins the room
[23:13:13] <tony hansen> the m3u stream has about a minute lag time right now
[23:13:13] kivinen joins the room
[23:13:14] metricamerica joins the room
[23:13:19] tlyu@mit.edu joins the room
[23:13:42] Ben Kaduk joins the room
[23:13:59] <Rick Andrews> The right edge of the slide is cut off
[23:14:22] tim.polk.ietf joins the room
[23:14:41] <Yoav Nir> As usual, if somebody wants something channeled, please prefix with "mic:"
[23:14:56] <Kathleen Moriarty> It looks like Sean's laptop
[23:14:57] <Yoav Nir> Currently on the slide entitled "Overview of "stuff"
[23:15:17] Tero Kivinen joins the room
[23:15:18] <Yoav Nir> "Autokey History"
[23:15:22] <Rick Andrews> Lost audio AGAIN
[23:15:28] Rick Andrews leaves the room
[23:15:43] Rick Andrews joins the room
[23:15:45] Tero Kivinen leaves the room
[23:17:47] <Yoav Nir> New Presso: Network Time Security
[23:17:55] Karen O'Donoghue joins the room
[23:17:59] <Yoav Nir> slide 2: Motivation
[23:17:59] DanYork leaves the room
[23:18:07] Joe leaves the room
[23:18:54] Joe joins the room
[23:19:09] <Yoav Nir> "Scope"
[23:19:32] <Yoav Nir> (since the slides don't have numbers on them, I'll only copy the title)
[23:19:37] Joe leaves the room
[23:19:54] DanYork joins the room
[23:20:38] <Yoav Nir> "Scope (continued)"
[23:20:45] <Yoav Nir> "Special Requirements"
[23:21:19] rbarnes joins the room
[23:21:40] <Rick Andrews> And once again audio is lost. It only seems to work for 5 minutes at a time.
[23:21:45] Rick Andrews leaves the room
[23:21:56] Rick Andrews joins the room
[23:22:23] <Yoav Nir> "Concept Overview"
[23:22:29] Meetecho RAV joins the room
[23:23:22] <rbarnes > the owner of the raspberry pi wins 100 points for having mathematica on it
[23:24:32] Satoru Kanno joins the room
[23:24:46] <Yoav Nir> "Meeing the Requirements (RFC 7384)
[23:25:20] <tony hansen> mathematica is standard on raspis now
[23:26:09] DanYork leaves the room
[23:26:15] <Yoav Nir> "Implementation"
[23:26:23] <Yoav Nir> "Summary"
[23:26:34] Yoshiro Yoneya joins the room
[23:27:01] Bill  mills joins the room
[23:27:01] <Yoav Nir> PHB @ mic
[23:27:11] Bill  mills leaves the room
[23:27:15] DanYork joins the room
[23:27:28] Rick Andrews leaves the room
[23:27:35] Joe Hall joins the room
[23:27:42] Rick Andrews joins the room
[23:28:50] Niels ten Oever_5231 joins the room
[23:28:51] Bill  mills joins the room
[23:29:01] Bill  mills leaves the room
[23:30:06] Niels ten Oever_5231 leaves the room
[23:30:32] <Yoav Nir> NExt up: Threat Model Analysis of Router Back (ning zong)
[23:30:38] <Yoav Nir> slide #2: Motivation
[23:31:10] <Yoav Nir> slide #3: scope
[23:31:55] avri doria joins the room
[23:32:05] <Yoav Nir> slide #4: Before Moving Ahead...
[23:32:28] Bill  mills joins the room
[23:32:34] <Yoav Nir> slide #5: Backdoor Classification
[23:32:38] Bill  mills leaves the room
[23:33:02] <Joe Hall> that looks like the dopant-level attacks paper, maybe?
[23:33:10] <Joe Hall> the CHES 14 paper
[23:33:49] <Yoav Nir> slide #6: Backdoor Purpose
[23:33:51] <rbarnes > i hate it when ghosts get into my router
[23:34:40] <Yoav Nir> slide #7: Traffic Eavesdropping
[23:34:53] <Yoav Nir> slide #8: Traffic Eavesdropping (cont.)
[23:34:57] <Ben Kaduk> Are the ghosts in the room, making the floor shake?
[23:35:09] cw-ietf joins the room
[23:35:37] <Yoav Nir> That's the volcano.  I have volcanos in my routers.
[23:35:46] <Yoav Nir> slide #9: Traffic Eavesdropping (cont.)
[23:35:54] <Yoav Nir> slide #10: equipment malfunctions
[23:36:13] <bortzmeyer> "Cisco claims no backdoors in its routers" is the new governement denies knowledge"
[23:36:26] <Yoav Nir> slide #11: next step
[23:36:33] <rbarnes > bortzmeyer: s/Cisco/$ROUTER_VENDOR/
[23:37:19] <Yoav Nir> Hey! Us firewall vendors can claim no backdoors just as well as router vendors!
[23:37:38] <Joe Hall> wish there was end-to-end shipping of physical matter :/
[23:37:54] <Joe Hall> or at least some types of physical matter
[23:38:01] <rbarnes > trying to detect backdoors in the lab is a fool's errand
[23:38:16] <rbarnes > seems like the real answer is No More Plaintext
[23:38:31] Edward Lopez leaves the room
[23:38:32] <Joe Hall> woo!
[23:39:17] <Yoav Nir> rbarnes @ mic
[23:39:42] <Joe Hall> e.g., this paper made my brain fold… I think the speaker just now put a figure up from it but did not cite in slides or draft http://www.chesworkshop.org/ches2013/presentations/CHES2013_Session4_3.pdf
[23:40:02] Bill  mills joins the room
[23:40:09] DanYork leaves the room
[23:40:12] Bill  mills leaves the room
[23:40:22] <Yoav Nir> Sometimes the fool get lucky, find the backdoor, and get to publish a research paper
[23:40:28] <Joe Hall> heh
[23:40:32] Joe joins the room
[23:41:04] <Yoav Nir> Next Up: Proposal for research on human rights protocol considerations
[23:41:05] <Joe Hall> shout out to avri from Joana and Niels just now
[23:41:07] Dan Wing leaves the room
[23:41:20] <Yoav Nir> "Research Topic"
[23:41:44] Dave Crocker leaves the room
[23:42:04] Dave Crocker joins the room
[23:42:11] <Yoav Nir> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-doria-hrpc-proposal-00
[23:42:21] <Yoav Nir> "Why?"
[23:42:23] hartmans joins the room
[23:43:25] <bortzmeyer> rbarnes : doesn't help if the backdoor is here to shutdown the router at will (there is not only spying, there is also DoS)
[23:43:25] Yoshiro Yoneya leaves the room
[23:43:26] <rbarnes > yoav: good question ;)
[23:43:47] <Yoav Nir> "Approach"
[23:44:11] <rbarnes > bortzmeyer: right.  the point is that the trigger for the bad behavior can be arbitrarily complicated
[23:44:36] Dan Wing joins the room
[23:44:44] <Yoav Nir> "Methodology"
[23:45:11] <hartmans> I wonder if the researchers have adequately considered RFC 4041?
[23:46:11] <Yoav Nir> @hartmans :)
[23:46:12] <avri doria> an april 1 rfc, how sweet.
[23:47:38] <Yoav Nir> These seem to me like goals, not research topics.
[23:47:38] Niels ten Oever leaves the room
[23:47:50] jimsch1 joins the room
[23:48:57] <avri doria> i think the classification is a good start.  but the considerations are indeed possibe. if we find some suggestions worth considering.
[23:48:59] <Yoav Nir> Specifically, I don't like people telling me *my* rights are being violated by being forced to write my name in Latin letters when writing a document in English.
[23:49:30] <hartmans> I value some of the goals behind this.  I don't see anything here that seems worth doing.
[23:49:53] <avri doria> i think it is a good point to deal with all the rights listed. but starting off with a few.
[23:50:05] <hartmans> That is, what is presented today doesn't seem like a valuable approach to the real human rights issues with the internet.
[23:50:35] <Joe Hall> yoav: but if the prevent you from writing in your language of choice that is key to reaching an audience, that is more in line with a chill on freedom of association
[23:51:34] <avri doria> that is the basis of the work the existing article was based on.
[23:51:41] Bill Mills leaves the room
[23:51:42] <Yoav Nir> If there is a chill here, it's that the document is in English. Allowing me 7 Hebrew letters at the top buys me nothing.
[23:52:08] <Joe Hall> sure, but if the internet was designed to no allow you to ever technically write in hebrew letters, that would suck
[23:52:25] <Yoav Nir> The community has determined (correctly, IMO) that making the document in English is worthwhile to make it accessible for the largest possible audience.
[23:52:38] <Joe Hall> absolutely
[23:53:28] <rbarnes > hartmans: it seems like it could be useful to gather a consolidated statement of the assumptions of rights that got us here, since violating those assumptions tends to require breaking the network
[23:53:29] DanYork leaves the room
[23:53:33] <yaron.sheffer> "Avoiding politicization" is kind of ridiculous on the context of human rights, which are 100% political.
[23:53:33] Karen O'Donoghue leaves the room: Replaced by new connection
[23:53:40] Karen O'Donoghue joins the room
[23:54:04] Joana Varon leaves the room
[23:54:12] Joana Varon leaves the room
[23:54:20] <hartmans> rbarnes: It's not obviously that the second part of your statement even tends to be true.
[23:54:30] <avri doria> wasn't thinking in terms of net neutrality.  
[23:54:31] <hartmans> Rather, it's not obvious to me that
[23:56:01] <rbarnes > hartmans: i think the filtering draft alissa mentioned is a good example of how that happens
[23:56:10] <rbarnes > but obviously not universally true
[23:56:37] Joe leaves the room
[23:57:22] Ruri Hiromi joins the room
[23:58:40] <Yoav Nir> It's nice to have a goal like "HTML / UTF-8 should allow for all written languages in the world." But is failure to achieve this a violation of the human rights of those people whose language cannot be written using these things?
[23:58:45] Joana Varon joins the room
[23:59:31] <bortzmeyer> Yoav Nir: yes
[23:59:46] <rbarnes > i'm pretty sure that "nobody in the IETF knows about $FOO" is always wrong
Powered by ejabberd Powered by Erlang Valid XHTML 1.0 Transitional Valid CSS!