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Thursday, March 14, 2013< ^ >
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[16:54:52] <Eliot Lear> testing
[16:55:36] <Eliot Lear> welcome to the SACM BoF.  I will be your minute taker.
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[16:59:14] <Eliot Lear> Welcome to the SACM BoF.  We will begin shortly
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[17:02:41] <Eliot Lear> Welcome to the SACM BoF.  Please store handbags in the overhead bin.
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[17:06:29] <Eliot Lear> Welcome to the SACM BoF.  We will get started shortly.
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[17:07:21] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 1: SACM BOF March 14, 2013 IETF-86, Orlando
[17:07:29] <Tobia Castaldi> Current presenter: Chairs
[17:07:30] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 1: SACM BOF March 14, 2013 IETF-86, Orlando
[17:07:30] <Eliot Lear> Kathleen Moriarty has called the meeting to order
[17:07:39] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 2: Note Well
[17:07:56] Joe Jarzombek joins the room
[17:08:11] cabo joins the room
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[17:08:32] <Eliot Lear> Dan Romascanu has presented the Note Well slide.  This is the 2nd and final BoF on SACM.
[17:08:42] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 3: Agenda
[17:08:44] Tony Rutkowski joins the room
[17:09:34] <Eliot Lear> We've spent a lot of time between meetings focusing on scope / use cases and an architectural document, and identifying the working items for a WG.
[17:09:50] <Eliot Lear> We will b focusing on the two documents
[17:09:58] Matt Hansbury leaves the room
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[17:10:21] eburger joins the room
[17:10:32] <Eliot Lear> We had a slot to discuss solutions contributions,
[17:10:34] Bryan Worrell joins the room
[17:10:44] Joe Jarzombek leaves the room
[17:10:55] <eburger> I am here to channel your ethereal comments -- Eric
[17:11:04] <Eliot Lear> questions on the agenda?
[17:11:17] <Eliot Lear> moving right along to the use case document
[17:11:19] <Tobia Castaldi> Presentation stopped
[17:12:21] <Eliot Lear> first presentor - use cases
[17:12:39] <Eliot Lear> the scope has narrowed
[17:12:52] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 2: Frame    
 Of    
 Reference
[17:13:14] hbirkholz joins the room
[17:13:32] <Eliot Lear> presentor now showing a top down risk management framework with controls on the bottom and policy, process, and procedure that are present at all layers
[17:13:37] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 3: Frame    
 Of    
 Reference
[17:13:39] <Eliot Lear> focus is on controls
[17:13:57] eburger leaves the room
[17:14:04] Lorenzo Miniero joins the room
[17:14:05] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 4: Plan and Organize
[17:14:07] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 5: Use    
 Case    
 focus    
 has    
  chan
[17:14:11] <Eliot Lear> There is a feedback loop in these processes
[17:14:18] <Eliot Lear> (for improvement)
[17:14:24] <Eliot Lear> Use case 1: end point process assessment
[17:14:35] <Eliot Lear> Gain assessment from an end point
[17:14:45] <Eliot Lear> Use case 2: evaluate the assessment
[17:15:00] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 6: Possibly    
 change    
 "Asset    
  Mana
[17:15:11] Joe Jarzombek joins the room
[17:15:11] <Eliot Lear> Use case 3: being able to continuously monitor the assets.
[17:15:20] Mike Cokus leaves the room
[17:15:29] <Eliot Lear> We've streamlined use case 1 substantially
[17:15:46] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 7: Streamlined    
 the    
 funcAonal    
  c
[17:15:46] <Eliot Lear> perhaps asset management is too broad; maybe call this asset scoping
[17:15:51] eburger joins the room
[17:16:05] <Eliot Lear> use case 2 has assessment query and enforcement
[17:16:16] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 8: Streamlined    
 the    
 funcAonal    
  c
[17:16:23] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 7: Streamlined    
 the    
 funcAonal    
  c
[17:16:51] Mike Cokus joins the room
[17:16:54] <Eliot Lear> use case 3: tasking and scheduling for monitoring, data aggregation and reporting.  we have to work out granularity.
[17:16:55] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 8: Streamlined    
 the    
 funcAonal    
  c
[17:16:58] <Eliot Lear> Open issues
[17:16:59] Sean Turner joins the room
[17:17:01] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 9: Open    
 Issues: 1.    
     
 Are    
 upd
[17:17:06] <eburger> Any questions on the open issues?
[17:17:24] <Eliot Lear> Questions: 1. are the updated use cases sufficiently narrow?
[17:17:32] <Eliot Lear> 2. Are updated use cases aligned with draft charter?
[17:17:43] <Eliot Lear> 3.  Thoughts about "asset management" to "asset scoping"
[17:17:46] <eburger> David Waltermire at mic
[17:18:08] Margie Zuk joins the room
[17:18:12] <Eliot Lear> We had a call for consensus three months ago, and our consensus was around use case 1.
[17:18:25] <Eliot Lear> allan thomson
[17:18:46] <Eliot Lear> … endpoint posture assessment: is this prior to or after connection to the network?  Answer: EITHER
[17:18:55] <Eliot Lear> allan: is it in the use case doc?
[17:19:37] <Eliot Lear> Allan: the other two use cases are broader than just posture.  if you start talking about other use cases, then why only focus on posture?
[17:20:12] <Eliot Lear> Mike Boyle, NSA: agrees with the focus on end point assessment.  what about sensors on the network that might collect information about the end point?  these devices could be filing reports.
[17:20:27] eburger leaves the room
[17:20:28] <Eliot Lear> Dave W.: can we defer that question to the architecture draft?
[17:20:38] <Eliot Lear> no other questions
[17:20:48] <Eliot Lear> Next presentor
[17:20:48] <Tobia Castaldi> Presentation stopped
[17:21:08] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 1: SACM Architecture
[17:21:14] <Eliot Lear> Dave Waltermeier on draft-waltermire-sacm-architecture-00
[17:21:39] <Tobia Castaldi> Current presenter: Dave Waltermeier
[17:21:40] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 1: SACM Architecture
[17:21:45] <Eliot Lear> please let us know if you are having difficulty understanding the speaker
[17:21:58] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 2: Overall Architectural Philosophy
[17:22:10] <Channing J. Thomas> I would like a copy of the presentations.
[17:22:17] eburger joins the room
[17:22:47] <Eliot Lear> looking to leverage existing specifications and to profile or extend existing app specifications
[17:22:53] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 3: SACM Architecture
[17:23:02] <cabo> Slides are at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/86/materials.html#wg-sacm
[17:23:08] <Channing J. Thomas> Thanks
[17:23:11] <Eliot Lear> documented a number of data flows between the entities
[17:23:30] <eburger> For the radio audience - my I/F dies every now and then. If you do not hear me channel your comment / question in a reasonable amount of time, message me again. -- Eric
[17:23:35] <Eliot Lear> we'll define requirements of the data within those exchanges.  moving to existing data flows
[17:23:41] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 4: Data Flows / Interfaces
[17:24:01] <eburger> Also, some of you are on MeetEcho, which obfuscates your ID. If you could preface your question or comment with your name, that would be helpful. Thanks.
[17:24:24] <Eliot Lear> DF1: this could be xml or json descriptions of policy instructions that sensors could use on what actions they should take
[17:25:05] <Eliot Lear> DF2: Collection tasking: directs data collection activities to a sensor.  when, how long, etc.  A normalized interface to a broad set of sensors
[17:25:32] <Eliot Lear> DF3: once the data is collected, DS3 is use to publish it, determining how / when information should be persisted
[17:25:55] <Lorenzo Miniero> Eric, doesn't your client show nicknames?
[17:26:00] <Eliot Lear> DF4: collect data query- decouples data collection and analysis
[17:26:01] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 5: Sensors
[17:26:43] <eburger> Only the jabber ID
[17:26:51] <Eliot Lear> there are three categories of sensors, network oriented that cross a data path between two endpoints that make observations.  end point oriented sensors collect information about the state of the end point.
[17:26:59] <eburger> (Using Mac Messages (OS X Mountain Lion))
[17:27:01] <Eliot Lear> they differ on how the data is collected
[17:27:12] <Lorenzo Miniero> oh that's why then... we randomly generate users on the fly when users join via Meetecho
[17:27:24] David Harrington joins the room
[17:27:30] <Eliot Lear> external endpoint-oriented sensors that use remote APIs that allow for data collection enablement.
[17:27:36] <Lorenzo Miniero> weird your jabber client doesn't dsplay nicknames though
[17:27:56] <Eliot Lear> the other type of endpoint-oriented sensor is software that exists on the agent itself.
[17:28:01] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 6: Endpoint Sensor Data – Current Scope
[17:28:03] <eburger> Must be an Apple, AlmostCompatible™ "feature"
[17:28:08] <Lorenzo Miniero> :)
[17:29:00] Simon Romano joins the room
[17:29:18] <Eliot Lear> under the current scope we're focusing on endpoint-oriented sensor type.  we want to capture identity information, posture attributes, configuration state, software, inventory, hardware configuration.  patch levels, etc.  firmware versions and settings...
[17:29:53] <Eliot Lear> identifying type of sensor and instance and other meta data to put the information into the correct context, such as method of collection.
[17:29:58] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 7: Content Repositories
[17:31:07] <eburger> Eliot Lear at the mic
[17:31:22] <eburger> Is it the data or the policies that drives data collection?
[17:31:26] <eburger> A: The policies
[17:31:39] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 8: Data Storage
[17:32:03] <Eliot Lear> standardized secure access to the collection policies, data collection activities, and analysis activities.
[17:32:12] <Eliot Lear> now on data storage
[17:32:38] <Eliot Lear> there may need a preprocessing step to manage large volumes of data.  want discussion.
[17:32:41] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 9: Controller
[17:32:46] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 10: Evaluator
[17:32:48] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 9: Controller
[17:33:25] <Eliot Lear> the central component is the controller.  manages all of the different sensors and maybe  other controllers.
[17:34:13] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 10: Evaluator
[17:34:45] Margie Zuk leaves the room
[17:35:07] <eburger> Eliot Lear at mic
[17:35:15] <eburger> What is difference between controller and evaluator?
[17:35:36] <eburger> A: decouple analysis from collection orchestration
[17:35:47] <eburger> Evaluator does not need keys to sensors
[17:35:52] <Eliot Lear> we need discussion on how to manage aggregated data
[17:35:57] <eburger> Allan Thomson at mic
[17:36:11] <Eliot Lear> multiple controllers could talk to the same sensor
[17:36:15] <eburger> 1:m::sensor::controller
[17:36:29] <Eliot Lear> it's all many to many at all levels
[17:36:50] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 11: Open Questions
[17:36:53] <Eliot Lear> allan thompson: what are the requirements to drive many to many?
[17:37:31] <Eliot Lear> Open Questions: are network-oriented sensors in scope?
[17:37:43] <Eliot Lear> are external endpoint-oriented sensors in scope?
[17:37:47] <eburger> Again, if you have any questions in the remote audience, feel free to ask.
[17:38:27] <Eliot Lear> mike boyle
[17:38:47] <K. Moriarty> Please add +1 or -1 to chime in on the questions.
[17:39:09] <Eliot Lear> "i think network-oriented sensors should be in scope, as we are working on protocols to talk to the repositories.  hopefully the same protocols can be used cagain"
[17:39:52] <Eliot Lear> steve hannah: whatever the answers these questions shouldn't change that we're about endpoint postures.
[17:40:36] <Eliot Lear> Dave W: this is data that flows between devices.
[17:41:03] <Eliot Lear> Chris Noncio: what are concrete differences?
[17:41:29] <Eliot Lear> Dave: Network-oriented sensors are IDSes, firewalls
[17:41:48] <Eliot Lear> External endpoint-oriented sensors that would do RPCs or portscans.
[17:41:59] <Eliot Lear> Chris Noncio: maybe active / passive is a better distinction
[17:42:08] <K. Moriarty> Chris Inacio
[17:43:01] <Eliot Lear> Dave W: An external network-oriented sensor instruments APIs.
[17:43:14] <K. Moriarty> Kent Landfield at mike
[17:43:15] Eric Burger joins the room
[17:43:19] <Eliot Lear> First question is whether we are looking at passive data?
[17:43:28] <Eliot Lear> A network device itself is just another endpoint
[17:44:19] <Eliot Lear> Mike Boyle: for network-oriented sensor might have identity; behavior of the device.  Example: a device that declares itself to be a printer but tries to telnet out of the network.
[17:45:00] <eburger> Eliot Lear at mic
[17:45:39] <eburger> Adam Montvale at mic
[17:45:54] Mike Cokus leaves the room
[17:46:11] <Eliot Lear> network oriented sensors provide discovery, but perhaps don't infer configuration change
[17:46:28] <Eliot Lear> still not clear on external endpoint-oriented sensors.
[17:46:31] satoru.kanno@jabber.org joins the room
[17:47:25] <Eliot Lear> allan thomson:  if you are including behavior as an assessment, you're going beyond what is traditionally defined as posture.  behavior is typically assessed over a large period of time.  how are you representing behavior?
[17:47:43] <Eliot Lear> kent landfield: and that's not something we want to do
[17:48:02] <Eliot Lear> Éric Vyncke: what about virtual machines?
[17:48:05] Mike Cokus joins the room
[17:48:14] <Eliot Lear> Dave W: not specifically, but that is something we may want to address
[17:48:30] <Eliot Lear> Mike Boyle: let's not describe behavior.
[17:48:34] <Eliot Lear> Back to the hum....
[17:48:53] <Eliot Lear> Assuming that we'll be using the same network protocols, should network oriented sensors be in scope?
[17:49:01] <Eliot Lear> kent landfield: wait!
[17:49:23] <Eliot Lear> Are we talking about behaviorial information being included?
[17:49:59] <Eliot Lear> steve hannah: are we talking about the same data set as listed on the slide earlier
[17:50:26] <Eliot Lear> Dave W: that's not in the initial list...
[17:51:21] <Eliot Lear> Chis N.: confusion about how to disentangle network-oriented endpoint and behavior
[17:51:30] <Eliot Lear> (my words there not chris')
[17:51:45] <Eliot Lear> steve hannah: please go back to slide that shows what attributes are in scope.
[17:52:06] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 6: Endpoint Sensor Data – Current Scope
[17:53:03] <Eliot Lear> What information on slide six would a network-oriented sensor provide?
[17:53:37] <Eliot Lear> Chair: Mike closed on this point
[17:53:52] <Eliot Lear> escuse me.  correction: line at the mic closed
[17:53:57] Simon Romano leaves the room
[17:54:53] <Eliot Lear> mike boyle: chris mentioned that there are products that can provide the assessment of slide 6, and while steve is right about accuracy, the benefit of network-oriented is that you don't need software installed on the endpoint in the network-oriented case.
[17:55:41] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 11: Open Questions
[17:55:55] Alessandro Amirante leaves the room
[17:56:32] <Eliot Lear> Kent Landfield: should controllers manage other controllers?  You need to be able to reach down, so yes, controllers managing other controllers should be in scope.
[17:56:57] <Tobia Castaldi> Presentation stopped
[17:57:03] <Eliot Lear> Dan R: please provide opinions on open questions
[17:57:15] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 1: SACM BOF March 14, 2013 IETF-86, Orlando
[17:57:19] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 4: Solutions Contributions
[17:57:37] <Eliot Lear> FYI: mailing list: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sacm
[17:57:59] <Eliot Lear> a bunch of docs presented PRIOR to 85
[17:57:59] <Tobia Castaldi> we are back to the "agenda and question" slide deck
[17:58:40] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 5: Proposed Charter
[18:00:21] Charles Schmidt leaves the room
[18:00:38] <Eliot Lear> dan is now discussing the process of working group creation.
[18:01:01] <Eliot Lear> this will be an opportunity for discussion later
[18:01:07] <Eliot Lear> questions about process?
[18:01:12] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 6: Proposed Charter (2)
[18:02:06] <Eliot Lear> One or a set of standards that enable assessment of endpoint posture.
[18:02:17] <Eliot Lear> 2.  a set of standards for interacting with repositories of content
[18:03:06] Margie Zuk joins the room
[18:03:15] <Eliot Lear> Dan is now referring to the old adage, the nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them.  his point is that we MAY need more than one standard in this space, but we would rather avoid that
[18:03:31] <Eliot Lear> and just because there is no consensus between two solutions is not a good reason for having two
[18:03:55] <Eliot Lear> Barbara Fraser:  no concise definition of endpoints
[18:04:10] <Eliot Lear> does it include ALL endpoints?
[18:04:54] <Eliot Lear> David W.: architecture doc references use cases doc, which refers to RFC-5209
[18:05:09] <Eliot Lear> any computing device that can be connected to a network. (and so on)
[18:06:32] <Eliot Lear> Eliot: will you do a gap analysis:
[18:06:34] <Eliot Lear> Dave W: yes
[18:07:05] <Eliot Lear> Dan R: no taxonomy doc.  we may want to issue such a document
[18:09:27] <Eliot Lear> Hannes: on Item 4, would they run between a node and the endpoint? or would that be between a node and an access node?
[18:10:10] <Eliot Lear> Hannes: would the ISP capture information in a POP to make the assessment or would it talk to the end device?
[18:10:32] <Eliot Lear> Hannes: this matters from a standards point of view as to what you're going to use...
[18:10:48] <Eliot Lear> Dave W: that's a good point
[18:10:57] <Eliot Lear> Dave W: there is an authorization step here
[18:11:10] <cabo> So… where is that proposed charter?
[18:11:22] <Eliot Lear> Allan Thomson: Assessment by whom?  Can one endpoint to assess another endpoint?
[18:11:52] <Eliot Lear> Allan: there is an implicit assumption that one needs a repository
[18:12:32] Alessandro Amirante joins the room
[18:12:41] <Eliot Lear> kent landfield: one basis for this working group is to advance an effort that is quite active in the vendor space.  SACM specifications and enumerations that allows us to evaluate endpoints, based on a standard interchange
[18:12:56] <barryleiba> Carsten, try this: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/sacm/current/msg00979.html
[18:12:58] <Eliot Lear> Kent: this is an area where vendors are very closed
[18:13:29] <eburger> Up on the screen :-)
[18:13:40] <barryleiba> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/sacm/current/msg00974.html
[18:13:43] <Eliot Lear> We are talking about standardizing the data interchange so that world can open up
[18:13:58] <Eliot Lear> also not enough international eyes
[18:14:29] <Eliot Lear> lots of C-level signatures from the vendors that want the assessment to be done the same way across many different countries
[18:14:35] <barryleiba> In the App Area, we've been putting the working charter proposals on the appsawg wiki, as a common place people can find them before they get put into the datatracker.
[18:15:07] <Eliot Lear> we have a standardized content format.
[18:15:23] <Eliot Lear> if you make a change in one place, the distribution of that change is quite difficult.
[18:17:13] <cabo> barryleiba: Wouldn't it be nice if these were easier to find…
[18:17:59] <Eric Burger> ping
[18:18:20] <Eliot Lear> still here
[18:18:26] <eburger> Eliot Lear at mic
[18:18:26] <eburger> clarify: content repository for data or configuration?
[18:18:34] <Eric Burger> I'm not on my mac. Ah - there I am
[18:19:16] <eburger> ping
[18:19:22] <Eliot Lear> so i think the end of that long conversation is that there will be config. information and POSSIBLY data as well that might be used to generate policy
[18:20:02] <Eliot Lear> hannes: think this is more focus on a standard to configure and manage sensors
[18:20:05] eburger leaves the room
[18:20:31] <Eliot Lear> eric has fallen off the chat: if you have questions or comments, preface with "MIC:"
[18:20:49] <Eric Burger> I'm sort of here, via the MeetEcho client (Eric)
[18:21:33] <Eliot Lear> steve hannah: this work is very complimentary to NEA.  NEA provides protocols for assessment.  what do you do with the assessments after you get them?
[18:21:52] <Eliot Lear> and you don't HAVE to use NEA.
[18:21:57] mep27rym joins the room
[18:22:08] <mep27rym> Eric is back
[18:22:12] <Eliot Lear> eric boyle
[18:22:54] <Eliot Lear> on (2), network sensors contribute to endpoint posture.  they bring realtime analysis and independent view.
[18:23:24] <Eliot Lear> Dorothy Gill: are we going to be able to update the charter to include the taxonomy doc?
[18:23:30] <Eliot Lear> Dan: should this be a deliverable?
[18:23:31] <mep27rym> Gellens
[18:23:38] <barryleiba> Gellert
[18:23:46] <Eliot Lear> Dorothy: could be informational, but complicated
[18:23:49] <Eliot Lear> dan: maybe
[18:24:01] <mep27rym> Thanks Barry - you are right!
[18:25:25] <Eliot Lear> Barbara Fraser: would this work be superceded by an extension to MILE?
[18:25:56] <Eliot Lear> Kathleen: there is a draft to provide a repository resource access method with RESTFUL interfaces
[18:26:02] <mep27rym> (ROLIE)
[18:26:21] <Eliot Lear> Structured Cybersecurity Draft could be done here, probably not here
[18:26:32] <Eliot Lear> sorry probably not MILE
[18:26:44] <Eliot Lear> Dave W: work is complimentary to MILE
[18:27:02] <Eliot Lear> MILE focuses on indicator information.  And this work could produce that information.
[18:28:12] <Eliot Lear> Nancy Cam-Winget:  Agree with Hannes requirements need to be separated by use cases.  Survey {needs to be separated}.  There needs to be clarity on how this relates to NEA and MILE
[18:28:24] <Tobia Castaldi> Slide 7: BOF Questions
[18:28:34] <Eliot Lear> please feel free to +1 on the hum
[18:28:41] <Eliot Lear> these are the BoF questions
[18:29:02] mcharlesr joins the room
[18:29:03] <K. Moriarty> If remote people would like to participate in the hum, please use +1
[18:29:03] <mep27rym> Please more especially so raise your hand on the "will you work on it" question!
[18:29:10] <mcharlesr> is there a mailing list?
[18:29:12] <Eliot Lear> A: should the IETF take up the work described by the scope and the charter (with possible modifications)?
[18:29:18] <mep27rym> sacm@ietf.org <mailto:sacm@ietf.org>
[18:29:19] <Eliot Lear> @mcharlesr: yes: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sacm
[18:29:19] <barryleiba> sacm@ietf.org <mailto:sacm@ietf.org>
[18:29:32] <Eliot Lear> everything will be confirmed on the list
[18:29:57] <mep27rym> no one cares outside of the room?
[18:30:17] <Eliot Lear> chair has noted good consensus in the room on A.
[18:30:35] <Eric Burger> Again, if you are willing to work, please say so?
[18:30:49] <Eric Burger> That is, say so!
[18:31:00] <Tony Rutkowski> yes
[18:31:14] cabo leaves the room
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[18:31:20] <Eliot Lear> Question B: would you actively contribute?  either writing docs, code, providing comments, or any combination.  Please +1 if you can help
[18:32:11] <Eliot Lear> Sean Turner: generally happy with the way it went.  need to figure out the charter.  We'll discuss this on the mailing list.  and thank you!!
[18:32:18] barryleiba leaves the room
[18:32:30] <Eliot Lear> Thanks to all
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[18:32:36] <mep27rym> Thank you in jabber land!
[18:32:39] <Eliot Lear> meeting adjourned
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[18:32:46] <Tobia Castaldi> Presentation stopped
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[18:33:57] <Tobia Castaldi> end of session... we are going to close the meetecho room in a few minutes! bye all!
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