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[09:09:51] <Chris Lemmons> Greetings from Jabber. :)
[09:10:09] <Kathleen Moriarty> Greetings!
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[09:11:52] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> I did not think that Oyez! was traditionally sung...
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[09:12:34] <m&m> Good afternoon!  I'll be your jabber scribe for this session.  If you have something you'd like echoed at the into the room, please preface it with "mic:"
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[09:12:43] Rich Salz has set the subject to: SecDispatch at IETF 106
[09:12:51] francesca has set the subject to: SecDispatch @ IETF 106 - https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/106/materials/agenda-106-secdispatch
[09:12:51] <Rich Salz> Minutes being taken at http://4.31.198.44:9009/p/notes-ietf-106-secdispatch
[09:13:15] <Yoav Nir> I was pretty sure that the z in oyez was not silent
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[09:17:59] <Richard Barnes> i believe the proper plural is `signersInfo`
[09:18:53] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> Are you going to get the attorneys general involved to resolve this
travesty?
[09:18:54] <Jim Schaad> No the plural is singerInfos
[09:19:23] <Richard Barnes> 🎶🎶🖋🎶🎶
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[09:19:45] <Richard Barnes> sorry, 🎶🎶🖋🖋🎶🎶
[09:20:29] <Jim Schaad> Well really:)
[09:22:15] <Jonathan Lennox> 👨‍🎤👩‍🎤
[09:23:22] <Richard Barnes>
[09:23:42] <Richard Barnes> we should get a giant hourglass and have someone in the front row operate it
[09:24:58] <Yoav Nir> I don't get the "false sense of security" issue with solution #2. If a certificate has one valid signature (with whatever algorithm) and the RP is willing to accept a certificate with this algorithm, then what is the problem?  If it's time to not accept RSA signatures then all RPs need to stop accepting them regardless of whether they support other algorithms
[09:25:18] <francesca> (Rich are you using the etherpad for the minutes or not?)
[09:25:58] <Richard Barnes> (Rich told me he was using the etherpad)
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[09:26:50] <Mike Ounsworth> The "false sense of security" argument is, for example, in an audited environment, it can be hard to prove that all clients are validating the PQ keys / sigs. Because the extn is non-critical, the behaviour is the same whether they validated it or not.
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[09:28:05] <Yoav Nir> OK. Thanks.
[09:29:40] <Yoav Nir> Still, since you have to update all RPs anyway, the only difference is whether we have to update them all *now* (as we would need to do solution #3) or allow it to be done over time, and at some point make the extensions critical, when your audited environment is ready.
[09:29:40] <Scott Fluhrer> Mic: we'll not trying to argue the solution; we're looking for where we should design the solution
[09:30:03] <Richard Barnes> Mic line is closed, sorry
[09:30:24] <m&m> Scott Fluhrer: I'll try to get it into the room, but I think the chairs cut the line already
[09:30:24] <Scott Fluhrer> N.P.
[09:30:31] <m&m> n/m
[09:30:35] <Rich Salz> Yes, as I wrote earlier: http://4.31.198.44:9009/p/notes-ietf-106-secdispatch (etherpad.ietf.org redirect)
[09:30:49] <francesca> Rich thanks :)
[09:31:21] <Mike Ounsworth> #3 requires you to update RPs now at least to understand the composite message format. Support for the final form of NIST primitives can come staged.
[09:32:32] <Daniel Van Geest> LAMPS sent this here because it wasn
[09:32:43] <Daniel Van Geest> 't "L" enough
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[09:33:18] <Yoav Nir> Nothing like a URL with no SSL and a dotted-decimal address. Who needs TLS and DNS?
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[09:34:18] <Mike Ounsworth> At least, the debate about which category of solution to take was not "L" enough. Maybe a minimalistic version of composite could be?
[09:34:52] <Richard Barnes> LAMPS hasn't really been "L" for a while
[09:34:56] <francesca> future presenters: please keep the presentation short so we can have more discussion :)
[09:35:45] <Richard Barnes> future chairs: please request more meeting time :)
[09:36:10] <Kathleen Moriarty> noted.
[09:36:16] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> Yoav: such things are equivalent to no server, for me.
[09:36:18] <Daniel Van Geest> And they're pushing back against that (finally?). They don't want it becoming PKIXv2
[09:36:24] <Yoav Nir> We should have known. It's the same L as in LDAP.  The S in SMTP didn't work so well either. Doesn't bode well for LAKE
[09:36:39] <Richard Barnes> oh hi kathleen!  👋
[09:36:49] <Kathleen Moriarty> Hi Richard!
[09:37:07] <Richard Barnes> thanks for waking up early!
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[09:37:34] <Kathleen Moriarty> Time was based on it being okay the last time, but Vancouver is likely to have more demand.
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[09:37:48] <Kathleen Moriarty> Yep, had RATS before this and am a chair for that too.
[09:37:54] <Richard Barnes> it's hard being popular
[09:37:59] <Kathleen Moriarty> ha
[09:38:31] <Chris Lemmons> Yeah... it's a rough meeting time for US remote folks. No pressure, but it better be worth it. :D
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[09:38:47] <Kathleen Moriarty> Ha, agreed Chris!
[09:39:27] <Kathleen Moriarty> If Brian doesn't get tp speak, his cover slide should be shown.  Amazing picture if nothing else makes it worth it for you Chris.
[09:39:41] <Chris Lemmons> Heh. Nice
[09:39:42] <Richard Barnes> just to cue everyone up: chairs are going to propose this is a new focused WG if anything
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[09:46:21] <Yoav Nir> That's something for the TLS WG to do, no?  (and other RPs like IKE)
[09:47:50] <Richard Barnes> i did'nt expect this to be a blockchain talk!
[09:48:00] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> Cash is king!
[09:48:24] <Richard Barnes> needs to be ballpoint for the carbon paper to work
[09:48:47] <Yoav Nir> Not if you press your fountain pen hard enough
[09:50:48] <Jim Schaad> What about my quill?
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[09:51:47] <Yoav Nir> IDK. Quills do not support RTL text for right-handed people
[09:52:14] <Michele Orrù> Richiard, there's no blockchain
[09:52:29] <Richard Barnes> joking
[09:52:29] <Kobi Gurkan> It's not *this* kind or cash :)
[09:52:50] <Michele Orrù> lol, okay sorry ^^"
[09:53:53] <Kobi Gurkan> I support this work, I'd like to see this blind signature based protocol moving forward. Would be willing to participate in a WG
[09:54:21] <Chris Lemmons> Maybe put a "mic:" in front if you want that voiced.
[09:54:33] <Michele Orrù> did anyone understand the name?
[09:54:37] <Michele Orrù> leif ?
[09:54:45] <francesca> Leif
[09:54:45] <Kobi Gurkan> Let me try that
[09:54:46] <Kathleen Moriarty> Eric Rescorla
[09:54:55] <Kobi Gurkan> mic:I support this work, I'd like to see this blind signature based protocol moving forward. Would be willing to participate in a WG
[09:55:27] <m&m> in line, Kobi Gurkan
[09:55:29] <Kathleen Moriarty> Leif Johansson was before Eric
[09:55:44] <francesca> and we cut the line after Matt
[09:55:45] <Michele Orrù> Kathleen, thank you!
[09:55:55] <Kathleen Moriarty> No problem!
[09:57:04] <francesca> sorry we are short on time!
[09:57:06] <Richard Barnes> get out of line, mark :)
[09:57:31] <francesca> we have 3 more minutes of discussion
[09:57:38] <Richard Barnes> luxury!
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[10:01:40] <Richard Barnes> nb: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thomson-http-content-signature-00
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[10:03:08] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> Richard: I don't think Justin is in the jabber orom
[10:04:23] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> You mean your SPA can't shell out to LetsEncrypt and get a single-use
client certificate?
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[10:10:13] <francesca> fyi, chairs are going to ask for opinion on dispatching this to http wg
[10:10:41] <Chris Lemmons> The HTTP WG was asking, "Why isn't this here?"
[10:10:41] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> <oblig>https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wkumari-not-a-draft-05</oblig>
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[10:12:45] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> "on both sides" makes it sound like it's "SEC vs. ART"...
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[10:16:50] <Richard Barnes> SECDISPATCH extending its reach into ART....
[10:18:00] <Richard Barnes> NOTHING IS BEYOND OUR REACH https://cdni.rt.com/files/news/21/69/60/00/untitled-1.jpg
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[10:26:46] <Kathleen Moriarty> SMART would be the right home, but it's not a group at this point.  It's also research to figure out how to best do this.
[10:28:42] <Chris Lemmons> This definitely smells like the IRTF, if anything. Not sure precisely where, though.
[10:29:55] <ted.h> Not yet a program, by the way; just a mailing list and some musing.
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[10:33:09] <Chris Lemmons> You're right. That's a pretty great picture. :)
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[10:33:45] <Kathleen Moriarty> :-)
[10:37:59] <Chris Lemmons> Hrm. I forsee some neat new opportunities for 431 cache poisoning.
[10:38:58] <kaduk@jabber.org/barnowl> Yeah, there's lots of potential fun.
"You could encrypt the information with a key known only to proxy and
backend, so it's definitely not injectable"
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[10:41:09] <Chris Lemmons> Thanks to the scribes and relays!
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[10:41:21] <Kathleen Moriarty> Yes, thank you~
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