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[13:46:28] <Bernard Aboba> Agenda: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/agenda
[13:47:03] <Bernard Aboba> Slides: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1cr_4jtUCYTkoJQl4jEWT9LKJfZkkYM1W3MW8s2bz47Y/
[13:47:42] <Bernard Aboba> Etherpad: https://codimd.ietf.org/notes-ietf-108-webtrans
[13:48:13] <Bernard Aboba> Direct link to agenda: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/agenda-108-webtrans/
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[14:10:20] <Daniel Gillmor> this is getting very meta
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[14:10:32] <Daniel Gillmor> yo dawg i heard you like meetecho
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[14:10:36] <Lucas Pardue> down the rabbit hole
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[14:12:08] <Stephan Wenger> I don't get useful audio.  Only me?
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[14:12:18] <Jonathan Lennox> I am receiving audio
[14:12:24] <spencerdawkins> I'm hearing it, too.
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[14:14:11] <Cullen Jennings> Joining the jabber room from my jabber client is not working. Anyone else having this problem. I can join jabber rooms for other WGs
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[14:14:42] <spencerdawkins> I'm in with pidgin
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[14:16:01] <Eric Kinnear> I can back Lucas up when I'm not speaking
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[14:16:46] <Magnus Westerlund> Cullen, it working for me, the only problem I have seen is that your handle can't be the name you have in the datatracker and thus joined in Meetecho
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[14:16:50] <teirdes> great Eric!
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[14:17:58] <Daniel Havey> I have no audio!
[14:18:12] <teirdes> you're supposed to be able to reload the audio somewhere...
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[14:18:24] <Meetecho> Daniel Havey: when audio drops, you can use the reload icon in the lower right
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[14:18:33] <Daniel Havey> Did that 3 times :(
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[14:19:36] <Eduard V> Reconnect button does not help
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[14:20:30] <Eduard V> Relogin does not help too. No audio
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[14:20:44] <Daniel Havey> Are others having problems with audio as well?
[14:20:50] <Daniel Havey> I have nothing.
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[14:21:08] <dschinazi@jab.im> Audio is working for me
[14:21:11] <Carrick> Mine is jittery
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[14:21:22] <Daniel Gillmor> mine is jittery as well
[14:21:30] <Magnus Westerlund> It is choppy to me. Same issue last session with a particular speaker.
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[14:21:46] <nygren > I have audio but it is very choppy.
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[14:22:08] <Steve Donovan> Agreed, audio is choppy
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[14:22:11] <teirdes> hm my audio is working fine
[14:22:34] <Chris Lemmons> I have choppy audio, but it's still pretty understandable.
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[14:22:39] <wseltzer> joining the choppy audio train
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[14:23:23] <Mo Zanaty> choppy but understandable
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[14:23:47] <Carrick> I don't have video, but I did before
[14:24:06] <Meetecho> Carrick: have you tried rejoining?
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[14:25:58] <Carrick> no, I'll try
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[14:26:43] <Cullen Jennings> Will's audio is pretty bad. Would be better if he came in over PSTN
[14:26:55] <Lucas Pardue> RIP
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[14:28:50] <Eduard V> I have changed the computer - it did help. I have audio now.
[14:29:30] <Magnus Westerlund too> Cullen, WebRTC has taken over, so no more PSTN ;-). You know who are responsible.
[14:30:18] <Daniel Havey> Finally got good audio :)!
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[14:30:57] <Daniel Havey> I will have to hit the recording to catch up on the use cases.
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[14:32:57] <Mirja> +1 for a joint IETF/W3C meeting for this :-)
[14:33:32] <wseltzer> And your W3C-IETF liaisons are here to help :)
[14:33:51] <Lucas Pardue> yay
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[14:39:51] <Mo Zanaty> Each video frame in a separate stream??
[14:40:23] <dschinazi@jab.im> Streams are cheap
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[14:40:43] <Jana Iyengar> Streams "should be" cheap
[14:41:08] <Daniel Migault> but any other reasons for each video stream in one stream ?
[14:41:09] <dschinazi@jab.im> Streams SHOULD be cheap?
[14:41:38] <dschinazi@jab.im> If you do not have DATAGRAM frames, one-frame-per-stream allows you to avoid head of line blocking
[14:41:59] <Jana Iyengar> @dschinazi: Heh. If you're not making them cheap, you're doing something wrong, so sure :-)
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[14:43:04] <Daniel Migault> I see, thanks.
[14:43:24] <Mo Zanaty> Cheap and non-blocking, until the ordering machinery gets added.
[14:43:33] <Eric Kinnear> This does bring up one of the good key concepts for webtransport in general which is that not needing per-stream negotiation is necessary (since then streams aren't cheap anymore)
[14:44:47] <dschinazi@jab.im> It depends, you could have cheap negotiation?
[14:45:42] <Eric Kinnear> Ack, as long as roundtrips stay low/0 then cheap is good enough for me :)
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[14:47:28] <teirdes> it's not trivial to deduce who is speaking actually
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[14:47:59] <dschinazi@jab.im> Harald speaking right now
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[14:48:50] <spencerdawkins> I'm somewhat surprised that there isn't a visible active speaker indication (that I've spotted so far).
[14:48:55] <Magnus Westerlund too> Well SCTP is a transprot protocol that support reliable messages, both in and out of order.
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[14:49:23] <teirdes> i'm not able to recognise all y'all gentlemen from your voices alone
[14:49:24] <Chris Lemmons> Yeah, I was surprised as well. Though if we followed the instruction and said our name it might help. :)
[14:49:39] <dschinazi@jab.im> I'll ask folks to state their name better
[14:49:40] <teirdes> also benjamin schwartz is in the queue for a very long time. ian swett just joined.
[14:49:46] <teirdes> thanks
[14:49:54] <Magnus Westerlund too> Spencer, all green user may speak, but you are correct that there are no indicator of audio level from them that would help.
[14:49:56] <Philipp Tiesel> I definitely second the preference for message streams over byte streams
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[14:50:03] <spencerdawkins> @chris - "never tell me the odds".
[14:50:10] <Ted Hardie> If you look at the participant list, the top shows the people sending media.
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[14:50:32] <Ted Hardie> It's not quite active speaker, but it does narrow the field to the folks who it might be.
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[14:50:59] <spencerdawkins> @david - thanks!
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[14:52:28] <teirdes> @ted yeah, i was confused between erik and harald, who were both listed as green (and whose names both sound scandywegian!). i also don't know the difference between bernard and david only by voice.
[14:53:13] <nygren > This new queue interface is odd.  It's hard to tell when one is promoted from queue to speaking.  (It might help for the chairs to call on people as soon as they promote them to speaking?)
[14:54:04] <dschinazi@jab.im> Sorry, I did try to call on you but it might have clipped out
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[15:02:10] <Alan Frindell> a generic multiplexing layer over tcp+tls
[15:05:53] <Ted Hardie> Is that drop the data, close the connection, or something else?
[15:06:05] <Ted Hardie> (for "we'll freak out")
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[15:06:55] <Alan Frindell> I would imagine closing the connection?  What happens in H2 if the client tries to send on a push stream?
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[15:13:00] <spencerdawkins> Ian wins the Internet today ...
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[15:14:24] <Alan Frindell> we're running a bit short on time, should we skip to the QUIC v H3 transport discussion?
[15:15:18] <spencerdawkins> #Alan, one of the downsides of having four transports is four presentations at a normal meeting :D
[15:15:59] <Simon Hicks> apologies. I clicked the wrong thing
[15:16:13] <Eric Kinnear> No worries! :)
[15:16:49] <Simon Hicks> I was only trying to read the chat...
[15:16:54] <Alan Frindell> Oh I had the wrong end time, there's more time left than I thought :)
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[15:17:34] <Eric Kinnear> @Ted: For "we'll freak out" I would tend towards "reset that stream" but if we want to go further "close the connection" seems to fit in line with the other error handling strategies
[15:19:26] <Alan Frindell> Also got interop with mvfst
[15:20:16] <Ted Hardie> @EK Makes sense.  I can see it escalating; if you close a few streams with protocol errors, then enhancing the peers calm by closing the connection would work.
[15:21:21] <Ted Hardie> Fallback to SCTP over DTLS over UDP?  (Sorry, couldn't resist)
[15:21:59] <dschinazi@jab.im> Teeeed!
[15:25:52] <Lucas Pardue> @Alan mvfst client or server? Where are we coordinating WebTransport interop?
[15:26:30] <Alan Frindell> there's a mvfst server that supports wq-vvv-01 fb.mvfst.net.  There wasn't much coordination, I just built it and put it up
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[15:28:34] <Lucas Pardue> cool
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[15:29:53] <Robin Marx> Would prioritization then also be exposed via a JavaScript API?
[15:30:22] <Robin Marx> And would that entail only prioritization among WebTransport streams or the full H3 "connection"?
[15:30:59] <dschinazi@jab.im> I don't think it does today, though it could be added later as an extension
[15:31:01] <nygren > (How do the privacy properties compare?  I can see it going either way depending on which threats you're worried about.)
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[15:33:18] <Benjamin Schwartz> Can we profile down HTTP3Transport/HTTP3 for WebTransport-only use cases?
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[15:34:05] <Alan Frindell> What would that look like?  ignore/fail requests that aren't WT?
[15:34:12] <nygren > +1 to Ben
[15:34:15] <dschinazi@jab.im> @Ben What do you mean by profile down?
[15:35:02] <Eric Kinnear> @Robin It's tempting to say that WT streams would prioritize among themselves since you may not know about everyone else on that connection (and I think isolation between sessions has been considered helpful/necessary)
[15:35:03] <nygren > Specify what parts of HTTP need to be implemented.  (ie, which methods need support.)
[15:35:05] <Benjamin Schwartz> Make it possible to implement a WebTransport-only HTTP3Transport "server"
[15:35:17] <Jonathan Lennox> Or indeed client
[15:35:31] <Benjamin Schwartz> Probably no need to implement HTTP "methods" at all, depending on how HTTP3Transport is structured
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[15:35:52] <Eric Kinnear> Ah +1 to that, even if that's not what we expect everyone to do, showing that it's possible could help show the delta between that and QuicTransport
[15:35:55] <Benjamin Schwartz> Could be indicated by a bit in the SETTINGS, maybe
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[15:36:21] <Alan Frindell> I'm not sure there's a requirement that an HTTP server implement any particular methods?  You can just return an error code?
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[15:36:41] <nygren > But being able to share authentication mechanisms and select other HTTP headers would be nice.
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[15:37:23] <Robin Marx> @Eric: in that case, I'd say it would be difficult to ensure performance of Http3Transport, as you have no idea of what else is going on and how the browser might prioritize that in turn. Would lead to inconsistent behaviours, potentially not wanted in some use cases. So the ability to enforce a separate underlying connection would be paramount.
[15:37:27] <Alan Frindell> The flexibility and extensibility of HTTP headers as an API is very convenient
[15:37:31] <dschinazi@jab.im> According to latest specs, HTTP servers MUST implement GET and HEAD, everything else is OPTIONAL
[15:38:02] <Alan Frindell> I suppose you can 404 every GET and HEAD?
[15:38:12] <dschinazi@jab.im> Absolutely
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[15:42:00] <nygren > Upside to muxing: lots of those apps (IoT/streaming/etc) also make HTTP API calls today and may continue to do so.  Downside to muxing with H2/H3: some non-spec-compliant clients/servers will (continue to) make bad assumptions about multiple requests sharing a connection and having connection-associated state.  
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[15:49:18] <Daniel Havey> We will likely get cut off 4 minutes after the deadline.
[15:49:27] <Martin Thomson> wow, chat works
[15:49:33] <Daniel Havey> That is what happened in earlier meetings today.
[15:50:22] <Martin Thomson> I expect that transports will not be uniform
[15:50:23] <Mirja> the cut-off problem was apparently fixed; so hopefully this will not happen
[15:50:49] <Daniel Havey> @mirja -- That would be nice. I hope so.
[15:51:24] <Meetecho> Yes, we should have fixed the cut-off: it was never intended to work that way, meetings need to be closed by an explicit command (either by chairs, or us)
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[15:52:26] <Ted Hardie> I
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[15:53:06] <Ted Hardie> am not really worried about profile vs. QuicTransport, but I am worried about the rest of the environment knowing the difference, given they won't have much visibility to H3 wire format.
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[15:54:28] <Jonathan Lennox> I'd be concerned about one endpoint (client or server) expecting full http semantics, whereas the other side expects a stripped-down version.  (E.g., does your client handle 3xx?)
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[15:55:22] <Jonathan Lennox> (I say this as someone who implemented a standalone WebSockets client that didn't handle 3xx...)
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[15:55:56] <Alan Frindell> That seems like a legit concern.  You'd almost have to negotiate the "profile"
[15:56:09] <Victor Vasiliev> Does WebSocket support 3xx?
[15:56:20] <Benjamin Schwartz> Ted: I think it's probably sufficient to just change the port number if you want to bypass your load balancer
[15:56:38] <Benjamin Schwartz> This is also common practice with WebSocket
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[15:57:07] <Martin Thomson> less is more people, less is more
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[15:57:15] <Chris Lemmons> Thank you@
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