Re: [rtcweb] [tram] Payload Types assignments
"Karl Stahl" <karl.stahl@intertex.se> Thu, 13 March 2014 09:02 UTC
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From: Karl Stahl <karl.stahl@intertex.se>
To: 'Magnus Westerlund' <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>, 'Colin Perkins' <csp@csperkins.org>, "'Pal Martinsen (palmarti)'" <palmarti@cisco.com>
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Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2014 10:02:25 +0100
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Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org, tram@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] [tram] Payload Types assignments
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For the mission to bring quality to real-time traffic over our best effort Internet I have started <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg00331.html> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tram/current/msg00331.html [tram] [rtcweb] The way to "Interfacing to QoS", A level 3-5 IP/IETF/WebRTC-thing how to interface to lower level's QoS-stuff [1] [2] Hi Magnus, With the response just sent to Pål http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg11846.html, skipping all the QoS methods and functions that really does not belong here when creating an Interface to QoS, I only see the suggestion of data channel information, i.e. also marking each data channel packet with traffic bandwidth and type information to be relevant and interesting. I checked with one of our developers and I think the same traffic information as for RTP can be transferred in data channel packets as follows: The RTP header has the following format (RFC 3550): 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ |V=2|P|X| CC |M| PT | sequence number | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | timestamp | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | synchronization source (SSRC) identifier | +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ | contributing source (CSRC) identifiers | | .... | +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ | RFC5285 header extension ... | | 2 bytes Max Bandwidth | 2 bytes Traffic Type | | .... | RTP Payload (often encrypted) A Data Channel header could have the following format: 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Data Channel Magic Cookie | (sequence number) | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | timestamp | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | synchronization source (SSRC) identifier | +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ | contributing source (CSRC) identifiers | | .... | +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ | RFC5285 header extension ... | | 2 bytes Max Bandwidth | 2 bytes Traffic Type | | .... | DTLS Header 13 bytes SCTP The RFC5285 header extension is not in a fixed position in any of these cases, but still trivial to find (especially when in a TURN flow). This could be introduced in http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-07#section-5 by making room for these bytes after the UDP header, but before the DTLS header. What do you think? Please apply the thought that we must allow ISPs/NSPs to route the WebRTC media to where it can be handled, by using TURN servers. A TURN server in a QoS-box can then use the traffic info (max bandwidth and traffic type) found in the extension header, to do whatever QoS method or function that is appropriate for the specific network type (none discriminated). Regarding what to encode, I have several times suggested, e.g. already October 22 http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg09129.html A) The maximum bandwidth requirement: Two bytes could contain everything from some bps for real-time text to Gbps for future 3D supersize telepresence on a logarithmic scale. B) The quality characteristics for the stream, with the highest bit set to 1, we could allocate a bit each for quality type e.g: Best Effort, Audio, Video, Supplemental Video, Gaming, Data, Delay Insensitive (e.g. video streaming), Minimum Delay, Reliable Delivery, Prioritize X(2 bits), Variation Y(2 bits), that could be combined as required to describe the stream. And with the highest bit set to 0, there could instead be a number for special usage that does not fit the general description of the individual bits. Please provide what more you see required (for any QoS method/function for any network type)! /Karl Footnotes: [1] Please do not divert or confuse this with QoS methods in themselves (like diffserve, bandwidth reservation, congestion control etc.) This is the interface from the application to the network level, where all networks types should be able to use the traffic information for QoS methods relevant to the particular network. [2] Here it is about recreation of the idea/intention of the RTP payload type (PT) header that is not available for the network level anymore, by instead having the application/browser filling the RTP header extension with relevant traffic info that all IP network types can use. Here, similar traffic type marking is suggested for the data channel. -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Från: Magnus Westerlund [mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com] Skickat: den 25 februari 2014 09:40 Till: Karl Stahl Kopia: rtcweb@ietf.org; tram@ietf.org Ämne: Re: SV: [rtcweb] [tram] Payload Types assignments Karl, (As individual) I also wish for more usable QoS mechanisms. However, I don't see that being achieved by your proposal. In addition I agree with Colin about the issues with putting the information in the RTP header extension. I would also note that this would be very RTP specific, and not at all help with the data channels multiple streams and their priorities. There might be data channel information that is more crucial than any of the RTP media stream packets. You are pushing for a small piece in the middle. A piece that will not help with the more general issue of QoS. --- Not at all! I am pushing for "Interfacing to QoS" rather mixing the application layer directly to lower level QoS methods like setting DSCP bits etc.. How does the application and the multiple ISPs that carries the traffic reach an agreement on what properties that can be provided, that the application in this instance have the right to request those properties and that any cost is correctly associated with the user or the user's agent in regards to carrying the associated cost. When it comes to setting DSCP from user land in the OS, that is restricted due to the security implications. If those implications where resolved, then OS could open up those interfaces. There are many interlinked reasons why things look like they do today. I don't believe in tugging on a single random thread in ball of yarn and hope that it comes out without any knots and ties on it. Show me the framework for the QoS functions you have in mind that at least has less issues than the currently deployed and take care of at least some of the bigger issues. If that requires information in the RTP streams for some reasons, then let us talk about how to best encoded it. But, we need that framework first, the architecture that makes this a better solution than the current Diffserv architecture or any other QoS architecture. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Färögatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: <mailto:magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------
- [rtcweb] WGLC of draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-… Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] WGLC of draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-… Stefan Håkansson LK
- Re: [rtcweb] WGLC of draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] WGLC of draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-… Bernard Aboba
- [rtcweb] TURN server address via DHCP, WGLC of dr… Karl Stahl
- Re: [rtcweb] WGLC of draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] TURN server address via DHCP, WGLC o… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] WGLC of draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-… Karl Stahl
- Re: [rtcweb] TURN server address via DHCP, WGLC o… Bernard Aboba
- [rtcweb] WGLC of draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-and-… Karl Stahl
- Re: [rtcweb] TURN server address via DHCP, WGLC o… Marc Abrams
- [rtcweb] [mmusic] WGLC of draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-c… Karl Stahl
- [rtcweb] [mmusic] TURN server address via DHCP, W… Karl Stahl
- Re: [rtcweb] TURN server address via DHCP, WGLC o… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] TURN server address via DHCP, WGLC o… Marc Abrams
- Re: [rtcweb] WGLC of draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] TURN server address via DHCP, WGLC o… Hutton, Andrew
- Re: [rtcweb] WGLC of draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-… Sergio Garcia Murillo
- Re: [rtcweb] TURN server address via DHCP, WGLC o… Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)
- Re: [rtcweb] TURN server address via DHCP, WGLC o… cb.list6
- Re: [rtcweb] [mmusic] WGLC of draft-ietf-rtcweb-u… Dan Wing
- Re: [rtcweb] TURN server address via DHCP, WGLC o… Karl Stahl
- Re: [rtcweb] WGLC of draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-… Chenxin (Xin)
- Re: [rtcweb] additional ICE info Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] WGLC of draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-… Karl Stahl
- Re: [rtcweb] WGLC of draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-… Chenxin (Xin)
- Re: [rtcweb] WGLC of draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-… Karl Stahl
- Re: [rtcweb] additional ICE info Dan Wing
- Re: [rtcweb] TURN server address via DHCP, WGLC o… Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] additional ICE info Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] additional ICE info Dan Wing
- Re: [rtcweb] TURN server address via DHCP, WGLC o… Karl Stahl
- Re: [rtcweb] TURN server address via DHCP, WGLC o… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] TURN server address via DHCP, WGLC o… Markus.Isomaki
- Re: [rtcweb] WGLC of draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-… Chenxin (Xin)
- Re: [rtcweb] TURN server address via DHCP, WGLC o… Karl Stahl
- Re: [rtcweb] WGLC of draft-ietf-rtcweb-use-cases-… Karl Stahl
- Re: [rtcweb] TURN server address via DHCP, WGLC o… cb.list6
- Re: [rtcweb] TURN server address via DHCP, WGLC o… Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] TURN server address via DHCP, WGLC o… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] TURN server address via DHCP, WGLC o… Karl Stahl
- Re: [rtcweb] TURN server address via DHCP, WGLC o… Jeremy Laurenson (jlaurens)
- Re: [rtcweb] TURN server address via DHCP, WGLC o… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] TURN server address via DHCP, WGLC o… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] TURN server address via DHCP, WGLC o… Bernard Aboba
- Re: [rtcweb] TURN server address via DHCP, WGLC o… Jeremy Laurenson (jlaurens)
- [rtcweb] [mmusic] TURN server address via DHCP, W… Karl Stahl
- Re: [rtcweb] [mmusic] WGLC of draft-ietf-rtcweb-u… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] TURN server address via DHCP, WGLC o… Saverio Vardaro
- Re: [rtcweb] additional ICE info Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] [mmusic] WGLC of draft-ietf-rtcweb-u… Karl Stahl
- Re: [rtcweb] [mmusic] TURN server address via DHC… Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
- Re: [rtcweb] [mmusic] TURN server address via DHC… Karl Stahl
- Re: [rtcweb] [mmusic] WGLC of draft-ietf-rtcweb-u… Christer Holmberg
- Re: [rtcweb] [mmusic] TURN server address via DHC… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] [mmusic] TURN server address via DHC… cb.list6
- [rtcweb] Payload Types assignments was Re: SV: [m… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] TURN server address via DHCP, WGLC o… Karl Stahl
- Re: [rtcweb] [mmusic] TURN server address via DHC… Karl Stahl
- Re: [rtcweb] [mmusic] WGLC of draft-ietf-rtcweb-u… Karl Stahl
- Re: [rtcweb] [mmusic] TURN server address via DHC… Justin Uberti
- Re: [rtcweb] Payload Types assignments was Re: SV… Karl Stahl
- Re: [rtcweb] Payload Types assignments was Re: SV… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Payload Types assignments was Re: SV… BeckW
- Re: [rtcweb] Payload Types assignments was Re: SV… Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] Payload Types assignments was Re: SV… BeckW
- Re: [rtcweb] Payload Types assignments was Re: SV… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Payload Types assignments was Re: SV… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Payload Types assignments was Re: SV… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] Payload Types assignments was Re: SV… BeckW
- Re: [rtcweb] Payload Types assignments was Re: SV… Martin Thomson
- Re: [rtcweb] Payload Types assignments was Re: SV… Ted Hardie
- Re: [rtcweb] Payload Types assignments was Re: SV… Lee, Richard FTC
- Re: [rtcweb] Payload Types assignments was Re: SV… Dan Wing
- Re: [rtcweb] Payload Types assignments was Re: SV… BeckW
- Re: [rtcweb] Payload Types assignments was Re: SV… Karl Stahl
- [rtcweb] [mmusic] Anycast discovery, Was TURN ser… Karl Stahl
- [rtcweb] [avtext] Payload Types assignments was R… Karl Stahl
- [rtcweb] [tram] Payload Types assignments Karl Stahl
- Re: [rtcweb] [tram] Payload Types assignments Colin Perkins
- Re: [rtcweb] [tram] Payload Types assignments Karl Stahl
- Re: [rtcweb] [tram] Payload Types assignments Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [rtcweb] [tram] Payload Types assignments Charles Eckel (eckelcu)
- Re: [rtcweb] [tram] Payload Types assignments Colin Perkins
- Re: [rtcweb] [tram] Payload Types assignments Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] [tram] Payload Types assignments Karl Stahl
- Re: [rtcweb] [tram] Payload Types assignments Karl Stahl
- Re: [rtcweb] [tram] Payload Types assignments Karl Stahl
- Re: [rtcweb] [tram] Payload Types assignments Harald Alvestrand
- Re: [rtcweb] [tram] Payload Types assignments Karl Stahl