Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation (Transport Layer
Marsh Ray <marsh@extendedsubset.com> Wed, 02 December 2009 17:20 UTC
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Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 11:19:48 -0600
From: Marsh Ray <marsh@extendedsubset.com>
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Cc: Chris Newman <Chris.Newman@Sun.COM>, ietf@ietf.org, tls@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation (Transport Layer
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Martin Rex wrote: > Chris Newman wrote: >> Evaluation relative to draft-mrex-tls-secure-renegotiation-03: >> >> Kudos to Martin Rex for producing such a good alternate proposal. The >> introductory text up to and including section 4.1 is very good and would >> improve draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation. While I would support a consensus to >> publish the mrex document as the solution, I presently prefer >> draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation-01 for four reasons: >> >> 1. Running code: multiple implementations and interop testing was >> performed on an earlier version of draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation. > > Even EKR admitted that implementing the update is an insignificant > amount of work. > > Pushing this point, that there were interoperable implementations > when this proposal was made in the IETF smells very much like > a request for rubber stamping. My goal had been to present a usable solution along with the disclosure of the vulnerability. When it comes to closing exploitable security holes, a usable solution today is better than a perfect solution next year. If that's rubber stamping to you, well sorry. >> 2. Impact to core protocol handshake: The mrex proposal alters the >> handshake to include data that is not exchanged in-protocol. >> If this impacts PKCS#11 hardware tokens or other SSL accelerators >> (an issue mentioned by Dr Stephen Henson on the TLS list on >> that could severely impact deployment. > > Crypto hardware in general and PKCS#11 are not affected. What I am > changing is the plaintext input to a hash or hash-like function. Agree. > What might be affected is hardware implementations of SSL/TLS > or hardware-support for SSL/TLS in TLS endpoints. It might be > a firmware rather than hardware issue there. > > So far, I haven't seen any vendor/implementor that is facing such > difficulties raising such concerns. > > Which could mean two things: > 1. there is no problem > 2. those vendors/implementors have not looked at / evaluated > the current proposals. > > (1) would make it a non-issue and (2) would indicate than a decision > in the IETF is _premature_, we would have to ask some of those > vendors/implementers for feedback before making a decision. I am a bit disappointed that we have not had better participation from the vendors, particularly hardware. My suspicion is that they're reticent to discuss what they're up against either publicly or privately. We can't delay the solution for the large percentage of affected deployments that are represented by vendors who did choose to participate in the discussion for the sake of those who did not. >> 4. The mrex proposal requires use of TLS_RENEGO_PROTECTION_REQUEST in some >> circumstances. That approach is untested in the field and I have >> concerns it will negatively impact middleboxes. > > Huh? That sounds extremely unbelievable. I suspect that some inspecting firewall or IDS box somewhere is going to take issue with the new cipher suite value and have to be reconfigured. I also believe that it's a minimal concern and it's the least-breaking of all the possible signaling methods. > Do any of the browser vendors cut down on ciphersuites in their > current reconnect fallbacks -- and remove ciphersuites like > those with AES? > > A quick glance indicates that Firefox 3.0.15 happily sends > a list of 18 ciphersuites, including Camellia, in an SSLv2 ClientHello > on reconnect fallback. My experiments were showing that some clients would advertise a reduced list of cipher suites in the renegotiation hello. >> As draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation allows use of either the cipher suite >> value or the extension for C->S signaling, that mitigates the concern -- >> the field can choose the mechanism that works best. > > I consider this a defect in draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation-01. > There should be exactly **ONE** signaling mechanism for the initial > ClientHello on a connection so that extensions-tolerant but > extensions-free Servers will not be force to wade through lists > of extensions sent by clients. It's a three-to-five line 'for' loop. > The existing fallbacks or conservative approaches give you a hint > where you may expect interop problems. TLS extensions are a known > interop problem. Those servers need to be patched or you wouldn't want to trust connecting to them anyway. Client implementations can use the MCSV (magic cipher suite value) on the initial hello if they prefer. >> My take on some controversial issues: >> >> * There may not be a sufficient number of "extension intolerant" SSL/TLS >> servers in operation to justify the added complexity of >> TLS_RENEGO_PROTECTION_REQUEST. However, I do not object to inclusion as >> it's possibly helpful for some alleged extension intolerant servers >> compliant with early drafts of SSLv3 and it helped move closer to WG >> consensus. > > That cipher suite value is definitely not added complexity. > On the contrary, it is significantly reduced complexity. Well, there are now three ways to signal in an initial client hello. The extension, the MCSV, or both. Some implementations will find the MCSV simpler, some the extension. > We are not discussing about a new optional feature here, but instead > about something that should be patched into as many old clients and > servers as possible. And a number of clients MUST remain interoperable > with servers that will _not_ be patched. Therefore requiring anything > that will break interop in the productive installed base is completely > inacceptable when it can be avoided (which it easily can be). +1 - Marsh
- [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation (Tr… The IESG
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Robert Dugal
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Rob P Williams
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Kyle Hamilton
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Bodo Moeller
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Nasko Oskov
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… David-Sarah Hopwood
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Glen Zorn
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Joseph Salowey (jsalowey)
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Robert Relyea
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Chris Newman
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… peter.robinson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… David-Sarah Hopwood
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Pasi.Eronen
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Chris Newman
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Chris Newman
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Nasko Oskov
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Cullen Jennings
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Michael D'Errico
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Nelson B Bolyard
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… David-Sarah Hopwood
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… David-Sarah Hopwood
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Nelson B Bolyard
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Nelson B Bolyard
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Nelson B Bolyard
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation David-Sarah Hopwood
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Nelson B Bolyard
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… David-Sarah Hopwood
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Michael Gray
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Yngve N. Pettersen (Developer Opera Software ASA)
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation David-Sarah Hopwood
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… David-Sarah Hopwood
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation Chris Newman
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Michael Gray
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation Nelson B Bolyard
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Wan-Teh Chang
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Michael D'Errico
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Badra
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Stefan Santesson
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Marsh Ray
- [TLS] Defining "TLS channel" (Re: Last Call: draf… Nicolas Williams
- [TLS] TLS Renegotiate: empty extension and TLS_RE… peter.robinson
- Re: [TLS] TLS Renegotiate: empty extension and TL… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Peter Sylvester
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Nelson B Bolyard
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation David-Sarah Hopwood
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation David-Sarah Hopwood
- [TLS] Overzealous RFC-2119-ification (was Last Ca… David-Sarah Hopwood
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation David-Sarah Hopwood
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation David-Sarah Hopwood
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation Michael D'Errico
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation David-Sarah Hopwood
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation Michael D'Errico
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation Michael D'Errico
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Michael Gray
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… David-Sarah Hopwood
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Nelson B Bolyard
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Florian Weimer
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Marsh Ray
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] Defining "TLS channel" (Re: Last Call: … Pasi.Eronen
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Steve Checkoway
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Steve Dispensa
- Re: [TLS] Defining "TLS channel" (Re: Last Call: … Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Glen Zorn
- Re: [TLS] Defining "TLS channel" David-Sarah Hopwood
- Re: [TLS] Defining "TLS channel" David-Sarah Hopwood
- Re: [TLS] Defining "TLS channel" Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Defining "TLS channel" Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Defining "TLS channel" David-Sarah Hopwood
- Re: [TLS] Defining "TLS channel" Nicolas Williams
- Re: [TLS] Defining "TLS channel" David-Sarah Hopwood
- Re: [TLS] Defining "TLS channel" David-Sarah Hopwood
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Pasi.Eronen
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: draft-ietf-tls-renegotiation… Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] Defining "TLS channel" tom.petch
- Re: [TLS] Defining "TLS channel" Martin Rex