IETF Technical Plenary, Thursday, 23. March 2006

Minutes prepared by Mirjam Kuhne.

All presentations are here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/meeting_materials.cgi?meeting_num=65


1. Welcome and introduction (IAB Chair)

Leslie Daigle has been re-appointed as IAB chair

2. IRTF Report (Aaron Falk)

3. IRTF Technical Presentation
   Report from the End-to-End RG (Karen Sollins)

4. IAB Technical Presentation
   Distributed Hash Tables (DHTs) (Eric Scorla)

Leslie: The IAB has regular tech chats. Recently there was a
tech chat about the above topic. The IAB would like to share
their findings with the community:


Q: what constraints exist regarding the implementaion?
Who is adopting this?

Eric: mostly research right now. Not relevant to a normal user at the
moment.

Wesley Hardaker: we are beginning to see the solutions to pay off.
It is critical that we solve the issues Eric mentioned

Aaron Falk: asks about file sharing storing inappropriate data.

Greg (?): Why is Skype running DHT? Doesn't think they have any of the
security problems solved though.

Eric: it is a closed network, it is much easier.

Henning Schulzrinne: not quite clear what skype uses. Saw a paper
describing how people bypass security that skype puts into the system.


various people come up and give Eric cookies (related to the
discussion he started during the administrative plenary on Wednesday
evening :-)

5. IAB update (Leslie Daigle)

A year in review:
3 principle areas of interest last year:

- IPv6
  Dave Meyer opened channels to the operations community,
  IPv6 Multihoming tutorials at NANOG, APRICOT, RIPE
  will be continued
  see slides for pointer to IPv6 committee

- architectural perspective
  put out some docs last year (see her slides)
  mailing list
  IDN adhoc committee

- Unwanted Traffic
  workshop with people from various backgrounds
  goal was to get cross-area commuication and raised awareness

  summarises the workshop (ask her to do that herself)

Other IAB activities:
- tech comms
- ...
- Appeals
  two appeals in the last 6 weeks:
  -

Recent/upcoming activities"
..

(see slides)

James Kempf: points out that there is a category missing on unwanted
traffic: political DOS attacks (between countries).


6. Town Hall Meeting - Technical topics

Vint Cerf sends virtual congratulations to the IETF's 20th anniversary.

Comment: Maybe the golden days of the e2e Internet are really over.
should we be thinking about this in the big picture?

Jonathan Rosenberg: we do the best we can. we should make sure that
the protocols we develop do a good job. Personally he does not think
IAB should be making statements about 'good' or 'bad' technologies.

Alex Zinin: but if the community would like to express something, he
suggests the IAB is the right place to publish it

Leslie: this goes in the direction of business models and commercial
interests. Does not think the IAB should go there.

Bernhard Aboba: e2e and network neutrality is a business (claiming
lack of bandwidth) and not a technology decision.  maybe more related
to access technology and consumer choice.

Lixia Zhang: Nobody can tell where things are moving to in the future.
But we can learn what will be needed to accommodate both: the e2e
principle and commercial interests.

Brian Carpenter: we can be more pro-active than Jonathan said. Our job
is to promote technologies and components that support the e2e model
better than others.

Eric Rescorla: we have to have some idea that the things we develop
will have value to people and will get deployed. If we don't give the
ITU what they want, they will build their own network. But we should
continue to develop technologies we believe are right. As an example,
we made a consious decision not to design protocols that make
wiretapping substantially easier.

Bob Hinden: we should not give up visions and continue to believe in
the e2e model.

Scott Bradner: one of the things that the IAB might not have done
enough is to ensure that the protocols work in the network today
(incl. firewalls etc.)

Leslie: we do not have control over people who are using these
services.... ? we need to bridge better with people on layer 7.

Pete Resnick: there are certain realities, but they are changing.
there are community based networks being deployed. we should continue
to produce stuff that supports that and the e2e model.

People beleieve we need protocols that aloow both models to exist:
business model and e2e

David Black: what are the ends? How do you identify and contact
them. In the IETF an end seems to be identified by an IP address.

Jeff Schiller: we need a definition of Internet service. We can help
leverage things by defining the terms. example security: e2e security
vs. infrastructure sec.:
- end-user security: the network can not be trusted
- security in the infrastructure: reliability and availability for
  the end-user.
He will write this up and send it to the ietf mailing list.

Brian: agrees. good example: web service community. they could not
trust the network, so their security is on the xml level.
See RFC4xxx (written by John Klensin), suggests to look at that
(which RFC?)

paf: e2e should be defined as the humans and whatever they want to do.
all the people whowant to reach their applications (chat, rss feeds
etc.) . as long as we design the protocols as we are doing so far,
people will always be do able to do that.

we need to educate people more instead of just telling them that
things are bad. consumer rights agency in SE brought the broadband
provider to court ... (ask him for details).

Henning Schulzrinne: what we can do is lower the cost of entry in
terms of technology.

IAB guy: not only people to people, but also object to object and
people to object.

Lixia: problem that has been there for a long time is naming. It is
on the IAB agenda ....?

Dave Crocker: most important thing for us to do is to do a good job
with keeping things in or out the infrastructure.

Jeff: re. net neutrality: it is not clear what the telcos are trying
to do and if it good or bad. Reading the news is not always a good
source of information.

paf: as soon as we have ability to community between two points.  is
it really e2e we are talking about or minimising the number of layers?

Brian: agrees with Dave Crocker. This week there are two ITU meetings
on NGN. We may not have complete control over things.